What will be the next major step forward

[Geebee]

• 36 month free / up to 60 month prorate
• CCA: 900
• CA: 1080
• Minutes Reserve Capacity: 185
• Battery Gasses Need To Be Vented To Outside
• Battery Located In Trunk
• Group Size (BCI): 49
• Cold Cranking Amps (CCA): 900 CCA
• Cranking Amps (CA): 1080 CA
• Reserve Capacity (min): 185 Minute
• Voltage (V): 12 Volt
• Length (In): 13-15/16 Inch
• Width (In): 6-7/8 Inch
• Height (In): 7-1/2 Inch
• Weight (Lbs): 55 Lbs.
• Terminal Type: Top Post

The reserve capacity is the number of minutes the battery can deliver 25 amps, so in this case the battery would be roughly 75 ah.
The 900a is the cold cranking amps as above.

 

[flecc]

Yes, that will be an 80 Ah battery, and as said in my last post, capable of such cranking currents. Cold country cars like the Volvos are typically fitted with larger capacity batteries for obvious reasons. This is also why the battery platforms in all the cars we buy in more moderate climates are generally larger than the battery, it's to allow for the larger battery fitted to models exported to the colder countries.
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[John F]

Well as it seems that hardly anyone on this thread seems to hold out much hope in future battery improvements!

I would comment on today's Sunday Times Driving section article - "Saddle up Green Knights, your charger is here" - a test drive from Edinburgh to London in the Tesla electric car. This was a test to check the recharging facilities for this car en route.

After pointing out many of the downsides, it concludes:-

"...these concerns are likely to be overtaken by the pace of technology, There has been a rapid improvement in the performance of lithium-ion batteries.."

So cheer up folks, maybe the Yanks know something we don't!...

 

[flecc]

No they don't, they just imagine they do. When they can't realise something in practice, they make a Hollywood film pretending they can!

They certainly knew how to crash their new Boeing 787s when their lithium batteries caught fire though.

It's propaganda where their expertise exists.
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[Gubbins]

My car has some new battery technology.. At least I think it's new.. On over run and braking it harvest and temporarily stores extra electrical energy in the battery to be released when needed by the electrical system to avoid additional load on the engine. It's all moving forward..

 

[flecc]

That's the system Phill, not the battery. That works with any kind of battery. The Toyota Prius does that and has used NiMh batteries for most if not all of them, and that is a much older technology than lithium. Almost all e-bikes gave up NiMh years ago.
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[John F]

No they don't, they just imagine they do. When they can't realise something in practice, they make a Hollywood film pretending they can!

They certainly knew how to crash their new Boeing 787s when their lithium batteries caught fire though.

It's propaganda where their expertise exists.
.

If I remember correctly, (from the Gadget Show I think) the Tesla was tested and some reference made to having to make modifications to prevent fires, so it's not just Boeing. I was also amazed when they described the power source as been (I think) - 3,000 lap top batteries, some huge number anyway, - so hardly benefiting from "rapid improvement"

 

[flecc]

They were somewhat out on that John, the Tesla uses small cylindrical cells akin to 18650s, though they can be within laptop batteries also. The Tesla models typically use just over 6000 cells.

The reason for the vast number is that small cells are much easier to charge fast and easier to design for reliability and consistency. Of course the charging arrangements are very complex.

Many e-bike batteries have followed the multiple small cell design now, the Kalkhoff-BMZ batteries for example can use over 50 such cells, where a few years ago 10 large cells were commonly used
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[John F]

They were somewhat out on that John, the Tesla uses small cylindrical cells akin to 18650s, though they can be within laptop batteries also. The Tesla models typically use just over 6000 cells.

The reason for the vast number is that small cells are much easier to charge fast and easier to design for reliability and consistency. Of course the charging arrangements are very complex.

Many e-bike batteries have followed the multiple small cell design now, the Kalkhoff-BMZ batteries for example can use over 50 such cells, where a few years ago 10 large cells were commonly used
.

What's an 18650?
Is this the way to go?
What's the cost?

 

[flecc]

What's an 18650?
Is this the way to go?
What's the cost?

It's a cell type like D, C and AA, here's an Amazon webpage showing some. There are other similar small cells with different code numbers. D8veh has just mentioned them in an adjacent thread answer on this link.

Here's a photo of a Kalkhoff-BMZ battery innards using 18650s in a plastic cell mounting frame:



Whether you go this way depends on if there's a battery to fit your e-bike, home construction of one of these would be rather daunting.
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[Twangman]

Currently I have a Volt Metro which has served me well for the past 2 years.
However e-bikes need to be designed to look less like a conventional bike and more like a hybrid between a bike and a moped. We need to get beyond slapping a battery and a motor on a normal bike and thinking that's good enough.

The essentials to me would be:
Top speed minimum 20mph
Throttle as standard (I love my thumb throttle)
Integrated lights more like a moped
Indicator Lights
Better braking system
Electronic Locking

Prices need to come down given what an average moped costs; there are quite a few manufacturers/suppliers who seriously need to look at their prices if they want their bikes to become more than a niche product.

 

[flecc]

Unfortunately impossible in the UK and EU Twangman, given the law. Maximum assist speed 15.6 mph, and when we include the EU law in the UK shortly, throttles may be outlawed since the EU can't have them. These restrict what suppliers can provide. There's implacable government opposition to any assist speed increases in the unlicenced e-bike class.
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[Twangman]

Yes I know the Law though from what I understand the trade off will be we will lose the throttle but speed will go up to 20mph in line with rest of Europe, mind you I can get 18mpg on a good day out of the volt just by using the throttle.
My main point is prices are far too high on quality e bikes compared to the price of a e moped, if retailers want to create a mass market for e bikes in the UK. I also wonder how the market would go if Apple designed a ibike.

 

[Gubbins]

Yes I know the Law though from what I understand the trade off will be we will lose the throttle but speed will go up to 20mph in line with rest of Europe, mind you I can get 18mpg on a good day out of the volt just by using the throttle.
My main point is prices are far too high on quality e bikes compared to the price of a e moped, if retailers want to create a mass market for e bikes in the UK. I also wonder how the market would go if Apple designed a ibike.

Aple would do quite well, but would refuse to connect to anything else...

 

[flecc]

Yes I know the Law though from what I understand the trade off will be we will lose the throttle but speed will go up to 20mph in line with rest of Europe

Where have you got that from Twangman? I've heard nothing to that effect of 20 mph assist in the EU, and the DfT have repeated that the 15.6 mph limit continues when our regulations change to match the EU one. In addition, they have not made a decision on throttles yet, it's being reviewed following consultations.
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[Deleted member 4366]

In principle, Twangman's right. We need to campaign for these to be allowed. They're £160 in the Chinese supermarket. They're everywhere in China:
[URL=http://s451.photobucket.com/user/d8veh/media/China%20trip/chinafavourite_zpsa0320cb2.jpg.html][/URL]

 

[flecc]

Further to my post above, I've just been checking current EU sources like the European Cyclists Federation and similar sites and all repeat the 25 kph with no mention of an increase. The ECF has the ear of the European parliament and are firmly opposed to any assist speed increase in line with that parliament's last utterance on the subject that I know of.

Therefore I very much doubt there is any change to 20 mph assist intended, particularly as it corresponds to an odd 32 kph. That certainly isn't the existing limit.
.

 

[OldBob1]

What happens if we leave the EU?
Can we have the throttle, and 20 MPH

 

[Twangman]

What the DfT would like and what the EU want you may find is two different things.EU laws are all about Harmonisation amongst member states. It makes sense that UK law falls in line with Europe why should EU
suppliers/manufacturers have to derestrict just to be able to sell in the UK?
Their argument I imagine is that it is a unfair burden and cost just to sell in the UK.
However my main point is not speed but what a ebike should be. Most bikes are just a glorified bike. mainly because until recently they have been sold by traditional bike companies. Where others are starting to enter the market we are seeing some radical designs it's interesting seeing the concepts from car company's and the likes of Swatch Giving the production capabilities of these company's they could quickly churn out bikes at a competitive price point if they think there is a market and a profit to be made.

 

[Geebee]

A couple of points,

If Apple made ebikes they would be $10,000 each and no part would be user servicable

E-bikes should be cheaper but volume is probably a factor in that.

E-bikes are assisted bikes not motor bikes.

A light weight bike is a much better use of the limited power allowed ATM than a heavy "moped" design, if power allowed increased they would be more viable.

If you think e-bike riders get shafted price wise have a look at mobility scooter prices for whats involved in them.