What is the best legal crank drive bike available?

[indalo]

For me a pedelec or e-bike should still look like a bicycle and handle as close to a sports bike as possible and this will influence many of the future Kudos models.
Respect that these are my personal opinions and I respect that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Dave
Kudoscycles

Yes, I agree with that David. Well put!

Indalo

 

[Blew it]

...I'm absolutely certain that all owners of these over-hyped machines would, if they could afford it, ride something just as capable or more capable...

...and you would be wrong in making such a sweeping statement Indalo.

I am fortunate in owning the latest versions of both Panasonic and Bosch powered machines, but neither of those machines proved capable of providing the stable platform needed for good quality video recordings. This requirement could only be fulfilled by my Tonaro BigHit, it's huge weight and all-round suspension ensuring rock-steady footage from the four on-board cameras....even when riding difficult off-road tracks.

It is of course very nice to own several machines, any one of which can be designated for a single purpose. The Panasonic powered Kalkhoff Sahel as a 'go anywhere' general hack. The 28" wheeled Bosch powered hybrid for high-speed touring on metalled roads, and of course, the Tonaro Bighit for producing E-bike promotional videos.

Perhaps we should also acknowledge the requirements of those who simply cannot muster enough leg power to ride the predominently pure pedelecs coming from the European manufacturers. Niche-in-niche market it may be, but there will always be a market for machines with independent throttle control, and only China can satisfy that demand at the moment....nobody should be exclude from the enjoyment of riding electrically assisted bicycles!

Riding electric bikes is not about 'badge-championing', it's about treading the Earth lightly in a health improving way.....and neither is it the sole domain of well provisioned 'baby-boomers'.

Have a nice day Indalo.

 

[eddieo]

Eddie,as you know I rode the AVE-MH7 at last years cycle show and myself and my senior engineer remarked that it was very quick,powerful and generally nice to ride. But it would be a very difficult bike for a retailer to stock,the market for such a bike is very small.
Most people who buy these small 20" bikes want them to fold,the MH7 is fixed frame.
A lot of these bikes are bought by ladies who want an easy stepover,that relatively high crossbar would not suit most ladies.

Dave
Kudoscycles

Precisely why we bought it, and yes it is a niche bike. it folds enough to get it under bed in back of motorhome and wife loves riding it and so do I...Do I expect to see them all over the place? not a chance...Its also very strong, under 20kg with a 120kg weight capacity, most folders don't feel like a proper bike, this does.

what came as a shock and Flecc had pointed it out when I bought the bike, was the advantage of 20inch wheels in hill climbing. the bike has staggering ability, much better then our last full size Bosch bike.

where we go in Italy there is a hill that I avoid like the plague....Its scary enough driving down it in a car. By accident I found myself hurtling down after taking wrong turn, I could not believe that I could make it all the way back up without stopping, it was a great feeling of satisfaction......

Its been mentioned before about the Chinese being hard at work to come up with a crankdrive with acceptable quality and reliability, so I wish you well with that.

 

[GaRRy]

In China these are the most popular form of e-bikes,normally very high power,the only purpose of the pedals is to rest your feet,no chinese teenager would ever dream of pedalling. The high accident rate of these machines has caused the chinese government to enforce the speed and power limits and in some cities introduce a temporary ban,to my mind these mini electrical mopeds are the latest derivatives of the 40 kg plus chinese machines. Dave
Kudoscycles

Seems to remind me of UK mopeds in the 1970's. Again another reason why faster / more powerful e-bikes with no licenses etc will never become legal in UK or if they do will have the same restrictions as mopeds so why bother.

 

[GORDONAL]

Eddie,as you know I rode the AVE-MH7 at last years cycle show and myself and my senior engineer remarked that it was very quick,powerful and generally nice to ride. But it would be a very difficult bike for a retailer to stock,the market for such a bike is very small.
Most people who buy these small 20" bikes want them to fold,the MH7 is fixed frame.
A lot of these bikes are bought by ladies who want an easy stepover,that relatively high crossbar would not suit most ladies.
These small bikes are often bought as second or third bikes and need to be low price to fulfill that role,the price around £2k would be above most peoples idea of costing of a small wheeled bike.
These small bikes are often bought by couples for motorhome usage and often sold as a pair,typically the budget is £1500 for the pair,£4k is just too much money.
It's a shame because I personally like the bike but it's too niche to consider holding a stock bike.
We are very advanced on a 700c crank drive bike,I may look at producing a crank drive 20"folder,with low step through but I think the maximum commercial price point would need to be about £900 to achieve any sensible sales volume.
Dave
Kudoscycles

A crank drive 20" folder would interest me and i'm sure other m/homers

 

[indalo]

A crank drive 20" folder would interest me and i'm sure other m/homers

Hi GORDONAL

As a fellow motorhomer, any recommended ebikes which can be easily transported always interest me. The major problem with the majority of ebikes is the sheer weight and, with some, the extended wheel base making them unsuitable for Fiamma racks.

I'm fortunate that I have a huge garage area at the back end and my favourite large Dutch bike fits in there easily, leaving my rack free to carry a couple of other lighter bikes. My other ebike, used mainly by my other half, a Cytronex-powered Cannondale, weighs in at a shade over 17Kgs including the battery so that sits comfortably on the rack along with a non-powered machine if the terrain should call for an MTB.

Eddieo changed down to a smaller motorhome not long back and has had to reconsider his ebike stable as a rack isn't really feasible on his new truck. As you have probably read, Eddie is thoroughly enjoying ownership of his latest AVE model which answers the questions in his particular case. Folders are very popular among the caravanning and motorhoming fraternity for obvious reasons but I prefer a full-size bike as I quite often ride 20 miles+ when I'm away with my truck and I do like my comfort. If space is a prime consideration as it is for many, the type of folder and wheel size may be dictated by the available storage space.

Are there any particular 20" models you like the look of?


Indalo

 

[eddieo]

I miss our larger vans garage but much prefer the far more practical driving and parking of a panel van camper. I do have a rack but don't like carrying 4K + worth of bikes on it, or the faffing about removing my multiple security to unload one bike just to go and buy some bread in the mornings....This way I can carry one on rack and one in camper under the bed which can be easily put to use.

The AVE MH7 is a bit lonely in the market place at the moment for competent centre drive semi folders. There are the similar but heavier Panasonic Flyer and kalkhoff small bikes as well, but IMO they are not as sucessful as the AVE.

A fully folding crankdrive that can carry a heavy person will be quite an achievement I think, and probably heavier and not that nice to ride.....BUT! we live in hope!lol

 

[hech]

Seems to remind me of UK mopeds in the 1970's. Again another reason why faster / more powerful e-bikes with no licenses etc will never become legal in UK or if they do will have the same restrictions as mopeds so why bother.

Well the answer to that is because there is an ever increasing demand for them and that environmentally electric mopeds are preferable to petrol driven ones. Electric vehicles are becoming an increasingly relevant factor in the transport equation for the future, especially so for the urban sprawl of Greater London. The pathetic snobbery of some that see ebikes as no more than expensive toys built in a somehow inferior country(China) is bewildering.

 

[GaRRy]

Well the answer to that is because there is an ever increasing demand for them and that environmentally electric mopeds are preferable to petrol driven ones. Electric vehicles are becoming an increasingly relevant factor in the transport equation for the future, especially so for the urban sprawl of Greater London. The pathetic snobbery of some that see ebikes as no more than expensive toys built in a somehow inferior country(China) is bewildering.

Oh I can see effective electric mopeds replacing petrol ones in the future and would gladdly buy one for right price.

What im talking about is some peoples belief that pedelecs should be allowed to have more speed and power but with out tax/licences etc that a moped require. If it ever happened the first thing you would see would be the same as in the 70's with the pedals etc becoming a joke. Followed by loads of accidents and then draconian laws effecting all e-bikes. Really hope it does not come to this but History does have a habit of repeating itself and last time around this is what turned motorcycling eventually into a hobby for middle aged men (oh hang on thats me ).

 

[eddieo]

So Chinese manufacturing is now synonymous with quality is it......There is an oxymoron if ever there was one. And as for accusations of snobbery for not liking most Chinese junk, well its my turn to be perplexed. As for being toy's E bikes are my main form of transport used almost daily both at home and abroad, so I can hardly be accused of playing at this.

I have had a few e bikes and all have left me down from time to time and needed in some cases major work. this is fine when at home as not so reliant on any particular bike. but when away on an extended holiday it has ruined the important to us cycling element on more then one occasion. So Wisper are moving production to Europe..I wonder why.


So I will spend my pound notes in the European market, supporting our own economies thank you very much. Maybe in time the Chinese catch up, but from what I see on offer these days that is not going to be any time soon.

 

[GaRRy]

So Chinese manufacturing is now synonymous with quality is it......There is an oxymoron if ever there was one. And as for accusations of snobbery for not liking most Chinese junk, well its my turn to be perplexed. As for being toy's E bikes are my main form of transport used almost daily both at home and abroad, so I can hardly be accused of playing at this

Better stop buying Bosch then Eddie as they have massive investment in production plants in china

 

[eddieo]

Better stop buying Bosch then Eddie as they have massive investment in production plants in china

Not that naive Garry.....but I doubt the R&D or quality control there, in fact they have east European factories for the e bike units I believe

 

[funkylyn]

Better stop buying Bosch then Eddie as they have massive investment in production plants in china

I know GaRRy ...this thread is making me smile to myself......most parts for e-bikes are still made in China and other asian countries......whether some members like this fact or not is irrelevant.

So, no matter where your pounds are spent, and not just on e-bikes, most of us are still contributing to the economy of China and others.

As for Wispa moving 'production' to Germany, as David Miall said himself, majority of the parts are still coming from the far east and merely being assembled in Germany......

I think the days when quality in China was very poor are long over, Ive had e-bikes long enough to remember when Wispa first started and had an HORRENDOUS name for quality, or rather lack of it.....and well done to David for working so hard to improve it to the level that he has......but STILL using Chinese parts.....just BETTER ones, like most other bike suppliers on this forum


Lynda

 

[GaRRy]

Yep my understanding from friends dealing with china is the secret is to keep on top of them and make sure that once back is turned they dont cut corners. (ie you have to have people there full time to ensure they do what you asked not what they think they can get away with)

These days defining any major manufacturer as being British,American,German,Japanese etc is a waste of time and effort. Mercedes are made in US, Nissans in Sunderland, Toyotas in Derby and not a single Ford car in UK (yes I know Ford is american but european Fords are still considered british by many). These days we live in a global market and companies dont know borders anymore.

 

[eddieo]

Mercedes still have massive plants at home, I passed one a few days ago and it was like a town....I also know someone with a factory in China (not bike) and you are right you need it have your own people there..but if the design concept and quality not there, and product inferior what's the point.

 

[funkylyn]

I have never seen a Tonaro and never ridden one but personally speaking I have a dislike of these mini moped style of machines,note I have avoided the word bike. The Tonaro,Ebco Eagle,Ultramotor(Hero) all have this style,they tend to be very heavy because the traditional bike triangle is still the most efficient frame and any deviation from that shape tends to add weight. I have ridden these machines at shows and find their performance surprising given the heavy weight and only 250 watts power,they seem more natural to ride motorcycle style a la throttle,without power they are normally awful to pedal,I would say almost unridable.

Dave
Kudoscycles

Oh, come ON Dave...get off your pedestal......before you start rubbishing other makes of bikes may I suggest that you at least SEE a Tonaro and preferably RIDE one before uttering such rubbish as saying they are heavy unrideable "mopeds" without power.

The Tonaros are easy to pedal without power and my T. Esprit is about FOUR kilos LIGHTER than a lot of your bikes.
I would imagine most parts of both are similar in their origins, their only difference is that the Tonaro has the crank drive and yours are hub, both with throttles......what makes Tonaros so inferior to yours in your eyes ????

Only difference that I can see is that mine is a lighter bike than your equivelant model and will go up hills that yours cant.....and Im talking here about WITHOUT using the throttle.

I can take this sort of " mine is better quality rubbish " from a retailer/owner of a higher end spec model bike , but quite honestly .....NOT from yours, with respect.
I have agreed with, and read with interest, a lot of things you have said in the past and I am interested in your undoubted commitment to introducing many more new and varied bikes into your range in the coming year(s) but please dont resort to rubbishing makes that you have no personal experience of.....it does nothing to enhance your reputation in my eyes.

Lynda

 

[GORDONAL]

Hi GORDONAL

As a fellow motorhomer, any recommended ebikes which can be easily transported always interest me. The major problem with the majority of ebikes is the sheer weight and, with some, the extended wheel base making them unsuitable for Fiamma racks.

I'm fortunate that I have a huge garage area at the back end and my favourite large Dutch bike fits in there easily, leaving my rack free to carry a couple of other lighter bikes. My other ebike, used mainly by my other half, a Cytronex-powered Cannondale, weighs in at a shade over 17Kgs including the battery so that sits comfortably on the rack along with a non-powered machine if the terrain should call for an MTB.

Eddieo changed down to a smaller motorhome not long back and has had to reconsider his ebike stable as a rack isn't really feasible on his new truck. As you have probably read, Eddie is thoroughly enjoying ownership of his latest AVE model which answers the questions in his particular case. Folders are very popular among the caravanning and motorhoming fraternity for obvious reasons but I prefer a full-size bike as I quite often ride 20 miles+ when I'm away with my truck and I do like my comfort. If space is a prime consideration as it is for many, the type of folder and wheel size may be dictated by the available storage space.

Are there any particular 20" models you like the look of?


Indalo

Hi Indalo

As you can see from my signature I had 2 full sized Emotion bikes and they were very comfortable bikes I could squeeze both into my rear garage with the front wheels taken off . Since losing both bikes to fire a few weeks ago made me reconsider our needs and uses , I decided that that i would like to use them with our car also whilst at home as well as the motorhome - hence folders

Bikes i have liked that would fit Wisper 806 (none available new) , AVE MH7 ( front handlebars drop but £2K) , Dahon non electric bikes(just bought 2) that may be converted

Alan

 

[eddieo]

just add Ezee 20 inch wheel kits to Dahon's

Can I be nosey and ask what happened re fire

 

[GORDONAL]

just add Ezee 20 inch wheel kits to Dahon's

Can I be nosey and ask what happened re fire

Left our bikes at our property in Spain in June , massive forest fires in Catalunya in July = no bikes or property - very sad

Alan

 

[funkylyn]

Left our bikes at our property in Spain in June , massive forest fires in Catalunya in July = no bikes or property - very sad

Alan

So, so sorry to hear that Alan....what an awful thing to happen.

Lynda