What is the best legal crank drive bike available?

[Kudoscycles]

Thanks flecc,I remember you had confidence in Kudos's ability to stay the course,not sure upon what you based that judgement. We have made mistakes on the way,trying to sell to the Dutch and Belgiums being the biggest,they are very mature markets that we were not ready to penetrate.
But we have settled back into the UK market,which has it's own requirements and style. the learning curve over the last 18 months has been steep,the next batch of bikes will be 100% designed to suit the UK,much of that understanding and knowledge has come from being an active member of this forum.
thanks
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Kudoscycles]

Send it up here, I'll test it in the hills of Central Scotland.

Jim,
I will,as soon as a production bike is available.
Dave

 

[mike killay]

Hence why I asked if the Tonaro is especially undergeared?
Why am I interested? We have a new crank drive bike under test in the hills of Eastern Europe,this bike is the lightest crank drive bike I have ever ridden,it has a motor wound to give maximum torque at low speed and controller programmed to suit,it has gearing designed for hill climbing,it has a throttle programmed to give maximum power at any speed,it has a legal 250 watt motor,it pulls away from Bosch crank drive bikes easily but I still cannot claim it will climb steep hills (mountain climbs) without some pedalling.Named 'Eiger' which says it all!
Dave
Kudoscycles

I think is should be clarified that the Tonaro does need light pedalling on hills of about 1 in 9 if you want a reasonable speed, say 7-8 mph. I have never tried putting it in first and ruthlessly just slogging away without pedalling.
Since I typed the above, I have done some tests. On the flat, flat out in first the Tonaro does 7.5mph
I then went to a hill I calculate is about 1 in 9, stopped, then started off in first without pedalling.
It brought me up at 4.5mph on motor alone. I weigh 104 kilos.
This was on the older Enduro which allegedly has the 200 watt motor.

 

[mike killay]

The tonaro's motor is not as powerful as the Bosch one, so it does not climb as well as any Bosch-motored bike. The only advantage that the Tonaro has is that it can climb without human effort.

QUOTE]
Why do you say this? If both motors are rated at 250 watt, how can one be more powerful than the other?
Has anyone actually tried a current Tonaro against a Bosch?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The Bosch motor might have a rating of 250w, but it has a lot more ppower than the average 2500w bike. You should try one and then you'd know what I mean.

 

[mike killay]

I take it that 2500 is a typo!
That is the point though, unless you have a side by side trial, you cannot blandly say that the Bosch is more powerful than a Tonaro.
In fact, you cannot do such a trial because the Bosch has to be pedalled and unless there is some way of measuring rider input, there is no way of knowing whether a rider is pedalling harder on one or the other.
The crucial difference for me with my dodgy knees and hips is that I now know, thanks to tonight's test, the Tonaro will bring me home up the hill without any pedlling at all. Bosch cannot do that.

 

[flecc]

Why do you say this? If both motors are rated at 250 watt, how can one be more powerful than the other?
Has anyone actually tried a current Tonaro against a Bosch?

No e-bike is actually 250 watts, that is the notional continuous power rating. The actual maximum net powers of the legal e-bikes on the UK market mainly range between 300 watts and 600 watts, so you can see that there are huge differences between some models.

To protect the transmission against excess wear, the crank drive units are at the lower end of that range of powers, but there are differences between the makes of up to about 35%. The Bosch unit being today's most powerful and the Tonaro and the older Panasonic units of some while ago being at the low end.

Hub motors not having the drive through gears benefit mostly sit at the upper end of powers, the brute force approach, if less than one horsepower can be called that.

 

[Geebee]

Does the Bosch unit run continuously when pedaled or pulse with the torque of the stroke?
I just thought that if it pulsed it might explain the difference in climbing ability compared to continuous full power.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

No, the power doesn't pulse like the horrible old 26v Panasonic. It's pretty smooth. It just gives the impression of effortless power (until you reach 15mph). I only had mine set to max power to test its hill-climbing. Maybe different at other settings. I didn't have to pedal too hardup the hill. Every other bike had me puffing (including two 26v Panasonics), but not the Bosch.

 

[tillson]

No, the power doesn't pulse like the horrible old 26v Panasonic. It's pretty smooth. It just gives the impression of effortless power (until you reach 15mph). I only had mine set to max power to test its hill-climbing. Maybe different at other settings. I didn't have to pedal too hardup the hill. Every other bike had me puffing (including two 26v Panasonics), but not the Bosch.

I haven't ridden a crank driven bike which is newer than my 2008 vintage, 26V Panasonic powered Kalkhoff Pro Connect, so can't say with any authority how it compares to the latest crank drives from Bosch, Panasonic or Kalkhoff. However, based on many thousands of, "old Panasonic" miles, I wouldn't describe the power delivery as being pulsed. Quite the opposite really. The power delivery is smooth, almost silent and very natural. I particularly like the early power phase down making the power cut out barely perceptible. It's certainly not, "horrible" and is very much like riding a normal bike, but with a silent helping hand giving the rider a push. The hill climbing ability is phenomenal, it will go up any hill that I have encountered.

It's probably not that important now if the old Panasonic motor like mine is no longer in use, but I don't like to see it discredited, it was / is a very good power unit.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It must depend on how you ride and how you pedal. I couldn't get on with it at all. Rather than "pulse", I think "surge" would be a better word. It was smooth on the flat, but I'm talking about going up a steep hill. I'm using "horrible" as a hyperbole to give a comparing sense because to me they're chalk and cheese. I like all electric bikes and wouldn't be ashamed to own a bike like yours, but, for me, there's better ones. I think things have moved on since 2008.

You need to try a Bosch, then you'll know the difference. Even the new 36V Panasonic is a lot better than the 26v one power-wise, but I didn't like the clunk as power engages as soon as you put your foot on the pedal. Is that what they mean by "Impulse"? It scared me a bit because I thought the bike was going to go when I wasn't ready, but I guess you'd get used to it if you owned one.

 

[eddieo]

we are in germany on our way back from 6 week trip to italy and croatia and bothy bikes got a severe hill climbing workout i can assure you. our new (2nd Bosch bike) the AVE MH7 can tackle any incline...hills I have avoided in italy I climbed with ease it is an astounding system and pretty obvious to me or anyone who has bothered to try one why it has been so successful and taken up by so many manafacturers.

there is another german crankdrive o the way which may be worth watching, and now that industrial giants like Bosch have got ino the business there will be many more I would think. as for mentioning the Turdaro as being in the same league is hysterical...it is a heavy ugly joke and not really a bike IMO. as for recommending it to someone without the physical ability to peddle..the mind boggles.

please just get out there and try one or any bikes you are considering before buying

 

[tillson]

I think I need to try some of these newer systems. It sounds like things have moved on a lot since 2008.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You're missing the point, Eddieo: The TONARO is the only legal crank-drive bike that can go up a hill without pedalling, which is what OP needs. The Bosch bikes might be more powerful, but they can't do that. You have to pedal them to get the power.

 

[NRG]

I think I need to try some of these newer systems. It sounds like things have moved on a lot since 2008.

Definitely, as much as I like my Proconnect its flaws are noticeable and (for me) the pulsing on high power is annoying. Also, when really tired after a long ride and I cant put as much effort in the power cuts in and out because of the torque sensor.

 

[flecc]

Even the new 36V Panasonic is a lot better than the 26v one power-wise, but I didn't like the clunk as power engages as soon as you put your foot on the pedal. Is that what they mean by "Impulse"?

The Impulse unit is not connected with Panasonic, it's Kalkhoff's own motor unit based on the German Daum one which was released some while before the Bosch. Kalkhoff are selling bikes with a choice of all four crank drive units, Panasonic in 26 and 36 volt versions, their own Impulse and the Bosch.

The pulsing on the Panasonic ones is most noticeable in the higher power mode and/or when climbing with strong pedal thrusts and it's in the nature of the design. The system has always been a muscle multiplier, intended to track the rider's pedal effort, bionic in nature rather than motor vehicle drive. Some of us like it since it so accurately mimics a strong cyclist's muscle effort, some hate it, preferring continuous power in moped fashion. We're fortunate to have so much choice now, a transformation of just a short while ago.
.

 

[Eagle]

eddio,

….as for mentioning the Turdaro as being in the same league.....

I am pleased that you are enjoying your new ave mh7.

Opinions are like like rectal orifices, everybody has one and you are entitled to your's.

However, that does not give you the right to be unpleasantly derogatory about somebody else's choice of electrical bike.

Vive la difference and all that.

 

[geostorm]

Maybe we ask to much of what the bikes can do i have fitted a 52t ring which is a bit off a struggle on hills but fine on flat and i am far from being fit, and overweight and age, bad combination, probably at limit at present state this i accept.

Many of the top pros. riding 37 x 28 gear when struggling on mountains ( and they do have off days ) come to a stop, knowing they have hit the wall..........and of course they have no motor to help them......this they have to accept

Although it was alleged in the tour one year that Alberto , had one ha ha.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Eddie mentioned another german crank drive on the way. I am guessing that he is refering to the new AEG crank drive system. The AEG system would be ideal for aftermarket installations beacause the design bolts externally to the seat tube and does not need a special frame shape, is somewhat universal in its design. But AEG intend the product to be OEM only supply and priced same as the Bosch unit,that being the case I cannot see the point,it appears no better than the Bosch.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[funkylyn]

eddio,





Opinions are like like rectal orifices, everybody has one and you are entitled to your's.

However, that does not give you the right to be unpleasantly derogatory about somebody else's choice of electrical bike.

Vive la difference and all that.

What you must realise by now Eagle is that some people are born a***holes and others have it thrust upon them......sometimes I feel my urge to thrust something somewhere, takes some overcoming.....but...Im learning LOL

Meanwhile, we are all enjoying our Tonaros and long may that last....we must just all try not to be too smug about our excellent choice

Lynda