Well, I have just gone and done it - Kalkhoff BS10 ordered today

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Our government are happy to take the VAT on these illegal bikes along with taxes from the seller.

If it is ok to sell and buy them legally, then why should one expect it to be illegal to use. Especially after donating our 20%

If they do not wish these to be used, then don't take the money.

sorry missed this before. I just fell off my actual chair.

really, this is your actually defence? I'm frankly shocked.

By your logic, you'll be fine with me going into my local kitchen shop, buying a large knife and stabbing someone in the head with it.

If the goverment are happy to take the tax, by your logic I'm entitled to use it how I want.

I'm still shocked that you'd actually type that as justification for using something illegally.

Can you now see how far off you are with this opinion?

Col

 

[flecc]

Riding an illegal pedelec is of course a motoring offence. To keep things in perspective, motoring offences are the least of all in the eyes of the law.

The link below of court treatment of offences starts with murder and ends with motoring offences numbers 803 to 825 at the end of a very long list of more serious things. Some motoring offences are not even criminal, being civil offences, so not included:

Offence classifications

 

[Geebee]

Last night on my way home I drove in excess of 30 mph <33 to be exact> I had a screw driver in my glove compartment and failed to put my seatbelt on straight away, I drank a can of diet coke while sitting in traffic and parked on double yellow lines to draw out some money I also notice I have failed to tell the DVLA that I changed my address 2 years ago. Can you add me to that list of lawbreakers

But would you drive home in a non road worthy, unregistered, uninsured car that you were unlicensed to drive?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

very true Flecc.

and to be honest my concern isn't really with people buying them knowing the risks etc etc.

my concern is certain aspects of the eBike market in the UK selling them, without making those risks clear.

If you compare two bikes, one 250w and one 350w, of course the 350w is going to feel faster etc etc. But it should be made clear by the seller that it could be crushed and should you be involved in an accident you won't be insured in anyway, even if you are the innocent party.

There are certain shops and brands who are deliberately misleading customers and selling things to people they shouldn't be, and thats not good for anyone in the long term.

Col.

 

[trex]

...
There are certain shops and brands who are deliberately misleading customers and selling things to people they shouldn't be, and thats not good for anyone in the long term.

Col.

Name them if you are so sure otherwise, it looks like hit and run.

 

[flecc]

Very true Col. This is where the pedelecs forum has always done a good job of informing users and more importantly, potential users. Anyone coming in with a proposal for purchase of an illegally fast or powerful e-bike is usually warned by at least one responder.

Unfortunately that service has been weakened by the introduction of the "Offroad Forum", since someone commencing with a post in there is probably less likely to receive a cautionary note.

 

[trex]

"TYPE APPROVAL CLASSIFICATION L1e light moped. To use this bicycle on a public road the user must first register it, fit a registration plate and then tax and insure it. Registration plate holder can be removed in those territories where these restrictions do not apply."

the administrator should also 'pin' a similarly worded message in the 'Offroad forum' don't you think?

 

[Tim]

A speed pedelec rider was involved in an accident in London a few years back the police a) returned his bike after their tests, commenting how well-constructed it was and b) advised the CPS not to proceed with any action as it was not in the public interest. Part of the difficulty was the uncertain legal status of the bikes - clearly not a motorcycle. The rider was actually a little disappointed, he was looking forward to the law being put to the test. He did appear in court though - to defend the driver on the grounds of the poor design of the junction where the accident occurred.

Contrary to some ridiculously fabricated accounts I've read here and elsewhere, the bike in question wasn't crushed, he didn't lose his licence, he continued to own and ride the bike for a number of years afterwards. The people who buy these bikes are invariably mature, intelligent and surprisingly often the very people who should be enforcing these laws. Yes there are risks, but we inform all buyers of these via our website and face-to-face. Most decide the benefits outweigh these risks for their purposes. There are many who are simply not in the market for those risks and buy a Pro Connect, an Agattu or something else instead.

Also, I wouldn't sell anything I wouldn't ride myself, which is why we stopped selling electric tricycles. They're perfectly legal at 250W, even under the old EAPC laws, but so scary to ride, even without traffic in the mix. Speed pedelecs are constructed to higher stanards than other e-bikes, particularly certain dodgy Chinese imports with poor reliability, inadequate brakes, malfunctioning motor cut-offs, sub-par power, poor lights and missing reflectors, substandard batteries, frames prone to breakage...

 

[trex]

...
Most decide the benefits outweigh these risks for their purposes.

what benefits other than 'my bike goes faster than yours?'

 

[Tim]

what benefits other than 'my bike goes faster than yours?'

See above - better standard of construction, better brakes and lights, less time spent exposed to traffic and poor air, easier to get out of harm's way, numerous financial benefits.

All you're criticising is people's choices about how they go about their lives. No harm is being done. I'm glad to be able to explain the situation, for the avoidance of doubt.

PS the next A to B magazine reviews the Endeavour S11 Speed Pedelec as well as the Pro Connect i8. Read and weep

 

[Kudoscycles]

Very true Col. This is where the pedelecs forum has always done a good job of informing users and more importantly, potential users. Anyone coming in with a proposal for purchase of an illegally fast or powerful e-bike is usually warned by at least one responder.

Unfortunately that service has been weakened by the introduction of the "Offroad Forum", since someone commencing with a post in there is probably less likely to receive a cautionary note.

Flecc,unfortunately,Pedelec forum customers whilst highly valued are a tiny proportion of the e bike market,the vast majority of sales are existing customer referals and 'walk in off the street'-in some respects that is a shame that customers are not better informed because they often get sold the bike that the lbs has in stock rather than having the overal choice of the market place,the emergence of muti-franchise e bike only shops is improving that situation,albeit slowly.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

"better standard of construction, better brakes and lights"

The BS10 shares pretty much the same mechanical kit with your Proconnect Impulse (10G XT). Honnestly, you want us to believe that the BS10 is better built than the Impulse 10G XT?

" less time spent exposed to traffic and poor air, easier to get out of harm's way"

You would need more torque and a throttle, not more speed.

 

[Tim]

Yes, higher spec lights and brakes, automatic kickstand, higher grade tyres.

 

[Tim]

You would need more torque and a throttle, not more speed.

Show me a bike of this type with more torque. Also, it has a throttle up to about 18kph.

 

[Tim]

Here's a conversation I had with a customer moments ago, via our website

Tim Snaith:

Are you aware of the legal status of this bike?

i.e. it’s faster and more powerful than law permits?

harry (@aol.com):

who would check that sort of thing

cars are like that too

Tim Snaith:

Just have to make it clear from the start

harry (@aol.com):

ok..

 

[Kudoscycles]

"TYPE APPROVAL CLASSIFICATION L1e light moped. To use this bicycle on a public road the user must first register it, fit a registration plate and then tax and insure it. Registration plate holder can be removed in those territories where these restrictions do not apply."

This appeared against the advertising of a certain S class bike,on sale in the UK.
Has anyone tried to register one of these bikes as a light moped,so that we can legally use on the highway (but not cycle tracks),is it simple to buy one and simple to register/tax/insure it? Don't mopeds have to have lights,speedo,indicators?.....If it is simple I am constantly offered some really sexy S class bikes from Germany but reject them because I just cannot see how you could legally use one on our roads.
Flecc,sorry to ask again,but I am sure you understood the implications of legally using these S class bikes in the UK and there was a photo of a bike where someone had achieved it?
Has anyone registered these bikes in the UK?
KudosDave

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Last night on my way home I drove in excess of 30 mph <33 to be exact> I had a screw driver in my glove compartment and failed to put my seatbelt on straight away, I drank a can of diet coke while sitting in traffic and parked on double yellow lines to draw out some money I also notice I have failed to tell the DVLA that I changed my address 2 years ago. Can you add me to that list of lawbreakers

I'll forgive you for all that except parking on the yellow lines, so yes, you have to go on the list of criminals. St Peter has added it to your record and will discuss it with you when you reach the pearly gates.

A friend of mine, who passed away recently visited me one night and told me that St Peter wouldn't let him in, so instead, he had to take the down elevator. When he got there it was quite warm, but not unbearably so. He looked around and he saw many of his naughty friends from school and his pervert "uncle" (not real uncle) all standing round up to their waists in ** listening to rock music, while beautiful naked women served them coffee. "It's not so bad down here", he thought. Then a bell rang, and a guy with a red face and horns shouted out," Tea-break over - back on your heads".

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Here's a conversation I had with a customer moments ago, via our website

Tim Snaith:

Are you aware of the legal status of this bike?

i.e. it’s faster and more powerful than law permits?

harry (@aol.com):

who would check that sort of thing

cars are like that too

Tim Snaith:

Just have to make it clear from the start

harry (@aol.com):

ok..

fundamentally - not correct.

yes cars can be driven faster than the law permits. Drivers can just chose to drive them illegally or illegally.

the eBikes you are selling are not legally allowed to be used on the roads at all. No matter when speed you ride at, the people who buy these bikes can not use them legally in the UK.

people might be happy to ignore it, but its doesn't change the fact.

Col

 

[Tim]

Well, I'm happy to sell them, to ride them and to argue the toss with you about them. It's great to be free to do such things. That's what I like best of all about electric bikes, the unbeatable freedom of it all. Perhaps you got into the business for all the wrong reasons, Col?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Perhaps you got into the business for all the wrong reasons, Col?

not sure where you've got that idea from Tim. Or even what the wrong reasons are? I've worked in the cycle industry for 22 years now, in retail and for other brands before I set up FLi in 2005 when I quit racing bikes professionally.

I'm in this business because I love it, I love selling bikes its great fun, and 99% of people in the industry are people I consider friends.

I got into the industry a long time before I even considered why. I was working in the local bike shop when I was 16, as a mechanic... it certainly wasn't ever with the intention of selling bikes, and certainly not bikes that can't legally be used on these shores

Why did you think I got into the bike industry?

Col.