Well, I have just gone and done it - Kalkhoff BS10 ordered today

[amigafan2003]

not only do they operate on the fringes of the law, they choose to operate outside of the law. This then raises the question: if they don't recognise the law which governs their business, how am I as a private individual going to fare if the product that I buy from them develops a fault?

What?

It's not an offence to sell a non en5194 (or whatever) bike though, so how can you say 50cycles are operating outside the law? It's the user of said machine that operates outside the law.

Just like Sainsbury's can sell me a kitchen knife. If I decide to stab someone with it, what responsibility do Sainsbury have?

 

[elad770]

What?

It's not an offence to sell a non en5194 (or whatever) bike though, so how can you say 50cycles are operating outside the law? It's the user of said machine that operates outside the law.

Just like Sainsbury's can sell me a kitchen knife. If I decide to stab someone with it, what responsibility do Sainsbury have?

Sainbury's responsibility is making sure you are not under-age when buying the knife so they do have some responsibility.

50Cycles responsibility is selling products that can be used safely and legally on our roads and cycle paths not this b0llox about 'off-road'. I mean come on, who is going to ride a BS10 across a field - judges and police officers? ;-)

I suppose you support legal-highs too?

 

[trex]

"TYPE APPROVAL CLASSIFICATION L1e light moped. To use this bicycle on a public road the user must first register it, fit a registration plate and then tax and insure it. However, registration in the UK is currently not possible."

Tim?

 

[tillson]

What?

It's not an offence to sell a non en5194 (or whatever) bike though, so how can you say 50cycles are operating outside the law? It's the user of said machine that operates outside the law.

Just like Sainsbury's can sell me a kitchen knife. If I decide to stab someone with it, what responsibility do Sainsbury have?

Well, I'm happy to sell them, to ride them and to argue the toss with you about them.

I'm sure that there will be a reading and writing outreach project somewhere in your neck of the woods.

 

[amigafan2003]

I'm sure that there will be a reading and writing outreach project somewhere in your neck of the woods.

No need to be rude and lower yourself to an Ad Hominem fallacy.

Sainbury's responsibility is making sure you are not under-age when buying the knife so they do have some responsibility.

Ok, bad example. Lets say a screw driver from B&Q then.

50Cycles responsibility is selling products that can be used safely and legally on our roads and cycle paths

There is no such responsibility - especially as far as legislation goes. What you're doing is trying to impose your own moral code on a business, when the law requires no such consideration.

I suppose you support legal-highs too?

Sorry, I'm not following you?

 

[flecc]

The registering as a moped appears a distraction,the feedback from my guy is also that it can't be done....

Not quite true Dave, it has been done as the Q registration shows, but with very great difficulty as you can read on this link , first posted here by d8veh.

 

[flecc]

This then raises the question: if they don't recognise the law which governs their business, how am I as a private individual going to fare if the product that I buy from them develops a fault?

To nit pick Tillson, the UK and EU laws on e-bike use do not govern their business, broadly speaking they can sell whatever they like.

It can actually be an offence to stop them from doing so under the EU's restraint of trade laws

 

[tillson]

To nit pick Tillson, the UK and EU laws on e-bike use do not govern their business, broadly speaking they can sell whatever they like.

It can actually be an offence to stop them from doing so under the EU's restraint of trade laws

Hi flecc,

I was just picking up on the fact that Tim had said in an earlier post that he rode illegal electric bikes. That seems to be an irresponsible comment from a person who represents a company actively involved in the UK electric bike market.

 

[flecc]

Let's say for argument's sake, all the traders on this site say '**** it, let's all start selling high-powered ebikes'. Do you think that the 'chance of anyone being prosecuted' is going to stay 'vanishingly small' ?

Possibly not, but I posted on what is, not what might be.

However, don't forget the tiny presence of all e-bikes on the road. Even if everyone started selling them it doesn't necessarily follow that it would be noticed. I live in a London borough but have yet to see anyone else riding an e-bike on the roads other than another member I drove to in order to meet up.

 

[Wicky]

I suppose you support legal-highs too?

Sorry, I'm not following you?

Caffeine, nicotine, alcohol…

On that note I spotted in the normally tranquil yet quite militant against any wrongdoing, Frinton-on-Sea the other week a Kalkhoff silently bombing down 'The Avenue' and not an eyebrow was raised…. I tried to give chase to get a test ride on my normally aspirated cycle but they disappeared.

 

[martin@onbike]

Perhaps a demonstration 350w bike could be registered and V.E.D'd by the outlet for people to try before they buy, and show what's involved and where they can be used?

Surely Shops supplying Unregistered S-class bikes haven't been allowing customers to take the bikes out on test rides thus far, as they would be knowingly encouraging breaking the law by supplying the shop's property to be used in an Illegal manner?

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Totally agree Tillson and it at least case someone bought one from 50 cycles without being informed of its illegality (pedelec member). I have stayed away from them until I know they can registered and legally used on the roads. After all how many people have access to land which the public can not access? I am yet to find one. I have lost any respect I had for Tim or 50 Cycles.

Much more than about selling illegal bikes (on UK roads, this does not bother me that much) I do not believe attitudes of I would not sell anything which I would not ride myself help when there appears no legal way to ride s pedelecs, is a good example to set and other posts I have seen mean any respect I have is gone.

I admire many other competitors (Kudos, Cyclezee, TETS etc, the better we all are the bigger the benefit to all of us) but not them I just not find the way they go about business. Saying other bikes like BH are illegal (do not sell them currently but like these bikes) when there is no strong evidence of this and yet selling bikes which are not legal, pot kettle and black spring to mind (despite no evidence of them being illegal).

I have no experience of 50 Cycles as a customer (only comments some of our customers have passed on which I take with a pinch of salt as there are always two sides to a story).

I just do not understand acting this way if your product is so great.
I can appreciate other brands that we do not sell including Kalkhoff, Moustache, Haibike.


Perhaps it is just me and as they say any publicity is good publicity but I personally believe you can do things the right way without school yard insults and let your products do the talking and still be successful.

If s pedelecs can be legally ridden and registered we will sell them but this does not appear to be the case and until it is we are unlikely to.

My opinion and other may disagree but everyone has got to have their principles and beliefs!

David dealer of exceptional value and performance legal e bikes

 

[petitfilou]

Magnificent responses to the original post .Shame that the replies now have re-opened a festering sore of ethical standpoints.
Perhaps it may be time for the supplier who supplied my BS 10 without any mention of its illegal status ,should I venture beyond the field gate on to the highway or cycle track whose Sustrans requirements also preclude my use of a fast e-bike to come clean at the point of sale.
Their post sale weasel words regarding their explanation regarding limitations of use annoy me intensely.
At no time were any limitations stated .It was only when I read the t's and c's in my policy were perused that I was guilty of making a false statement and would have no case in event of a claim having parted with £183.00 for my first years cover.
My replacement legal e- bike is giving sterling service,great pleasure and as previously said in an earlier post,a Kalkhoff from 50 cycles.
Time for hands in the air from the supplier ,an ethical warning to potential
buyers so they know the implications attached to their purchase of the
superbike ! .
Happy days

 

[peerjay56]

I pick and choose what laws I break using common sense

I may or may not do the same, but I certainly would not be tempted to declare which or any I may be inclined so to do, on a public site

 

[Ronnyuk]

At no time were any limitations stated .It was only when I read the t's and c's in my policy were perused that I was guilty of making a false statement and would have no case in event of a claim having parted with £183.00 for my first years cover.

Happy days

£183 for insurance? That's more criminal then riding an illegal e bike

I don't even pay that for my car..

 

[flecc]

The trouble with this type of declation is that it is incomplete:

TYPE APPROVAL CLASSIFICATION L1e light moped. To use this bicycle on a public road the user must first register it, fit a registration plate and then tax and insure it.

Repeating what i have already posted, it can be seen that there are two forms of L1e:

Currently a 'S' class bike is a L1e-A and a moped is L1e-B. In the UK as it currently stands you cant register an L1e-A powered bicycle only an L1e-B moped.

An L1e-A (powered bicycle class) has to be modified to become an L1e-B moped and get Single Vehicle Approval from the Vehicle Inspectorate to get registration in the UK.

 

[petitfilou]

£183 for insurance? That's more criminal then riding an illegal e bike

I don't even pay that for my car..

 

[petitfilou]

Must be cheaper in Toytown!

 

[D8ve]

Some of us are old with no driving convictions or accidents in the past ten years. So a sub £200 insurance is reasonable.
Unlike the holes these entertaining arguments have been down

 

[benjy_a]

I bet if you plotted a timeline showing the occurrences of this argument over the last few years it would be pretty linear. Lines always get blurred between legalities and moral opinion, plenty of high horses around every time too.

But...it seems to always be the most entertaining thread of the moment. I love how everybody tries to outsmart each other and usually make themselves look either like an anti establishment ASBO candidate or a right wing holier than thou 100% law abiding (really??) Telegraph reader.

Thanks for the entertainment