Trek Cytronex - First Impressions.

flecc · Jul 12, 2008

That's excellent for that distance and altitude Chris, and would still have been if it had been a constant down and return up rather than rolling.

Probably difficult to increase the capacity on the existing design, but as you were carrying an extra load on the climbing return, an extra battery wouldn't have been too much of a burden.

Maybe Mark could design a second pre-wired battery mount as an option at the time of bike purchase or for after market fitting, either with a switch or with included Schottky diode protection.
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Cyclezee · Jul 13, 2008

Yes, it would be good if the battery had a bit more range, but the obvious and simple solution is a second battery.
Personally, I don't think it needs to be pre-wired, this would increase complexity and cost. All that is needed is a second bottle carrier on the seat down tube, the fittings are already there, and then when the first battery dies, simply swap them over.
This process would take less than a minute to perform and effectively double whatever range the rider is able to achieve.

The down side of a second battery is increased weight and cost, taking it over the psychological £1000 barrier.

As I have said before, it would be good to have a set of lights the show the remaining battery power, but they would have to be very small and neat so as not to spoil the aesthetics, and they would add to the complexity.

The only change I have made to date is swapping the saddle for a Madison G12. It is just so more comfortable to ride now.
The Bontrager stand I ordered on 18/06/08 has finally been dispatched and is due to be delivered tomorrow.

J

hn

flecc · Jul 13, 2008

Aldby said:
Personally, I don't think it needs to be pre-wired, this would increase complexity and cost. All that is needed is a second bottle carrier on the seat down tube, the fittings are already there, and then when the first battery dies, simply swap them over.

J hn

I agree with the desirability of keeeping it simple John, but think if this switchover set was available as an option, it would widen the market for the Cytronex with up to 40 miles on tap, since this longer range is the way the competition is going.

The purist would still have the simplicity as standard so nothing spoilt, this option more likely to be appropriate on the new mudguards version perhaps.
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Cyclezee · Jul 13, 2008

flecc said:
I agree with the desirability of keeeping it simple John, but think if this switchover set was available as an option, it would widen the market for the Cytronex with up to 40 miles on tap, since this longer range is the way the competition is going.

The purist would still have the simplicity as standard so nothing spoilt, this option more likely to be appropriate on the new mudguards version perhaps.
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Sorry Flecc,
I think I must be missing something. If you carry a second battery as spare you will have a range of up to 40 miles agreed, but it doesn't need to be wired or have a switch etc. Less is more.........more or less.

Also, I was not aware there was a new mudguard version available, I thought they were just optional extras?

On an unrelated and trivial matter. When you post, why is there an extra full stop at the beginning of the line following your last sentence?
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John

Cyclezee · Jul 15, 2008

I eventually received a Bontrager Kickstand from All Terrain Cycles, but I found it rather short. I could have extended it by fitting a rubber foot, but I fitted a Pletscher Multizoom instead which is more expensive, but a better piece of kit.
See photos of stand and Madison saddle below.

Aldby's slideshow on Flickr

These are the only additions I intend to make to the bike.

J

hn

flecc · Jul 15, 2008

Aldby said:
Sorry Flecc,
I think I must be missing something. If you carry a second battery as spare you will have a range of up to 40 miles agreed, but it doesn't need to be wired or have a switch etc. Less is more.........more or less.

It doesn't need to have John, but the wider market I'm speaking of might want the convenience of continuous riding. Swapping batteries or connections can be irksome when it's bucketing down or in a heavy traffic area. As I said, optional, those who don't want, don't get.

Aldby said:
Also, I was not aware there was a new mudguard version available, I thought they were just optional extras?

I'm sure Mark said he was preparing a second version with those extras as standard.

Aldby said:
On an unrelated and trivial matter. When you post, why is there an extra full stop at the beginning of the line following your last sentence?

Artistic sensibilities and individuality John. Since I don't sign off with a name as you do, a final line of text can end up very close to and overlapping the Quote box and icons. The end result looks cluttered and unbalanced when that happens, and the stop prevents that and balances the text in the box.

After all, a quality post deserves a quality presentation.

While on such idiosyncrasies, when someone posts an oversize photo forcing others to subsequently scroll laterally to read responses, I frequently insert returns line by line on any reply of mine so that others are not inconvenienced in that way when reading my response. Just another quality touch.

. And here's that stop again, just in case.
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Mark/Cytronex · Jul 18, 2008

Sorry not been able to get on to the forum recently with all the interest we have had. To answer a few questions:

1. There isn't a version that comes with mudguards, but now you can buy online and add fitted full SKS full mudguards at £19.95, a Madison G14Z saddle fitted for £21.95, Tubus vega rack fitted for £64.50 (these are very good racks indeed), or a Blackburn EX1+ rack fitted for £29.95 (well, haven't quite managed to get that one on the web site yet). I attach a photo of the FX with the full SKS mudguards and Tubus Vega rack.

2. Our system is designed to be modular - we believe a bike should be as light as possible and that there is no point lugging a 4 Kg battery when you are going 5 miles. Most bike journeys are well under 20 miles and this is why we have this approach. Hence if you are doing over 20 miles or touring, another battery will fit neatly on the seat tube exactly as John suggests and can be swapped over at half time (most people will be stopping at least once in that trip). It is very quick and easy to do.

3. Chris, I suggest you try fully charging immediately before use – I am sure you will find both extra power and extra range.

4. One earlier point was made about fitting racks to ladies frames. We have fitted several and we now hold the extra long struts for both the Tubus and Blackburn racks. As Chris pointed out, standard frames do not fit ladies geometry bikes in many frame sizes.

Regards,

Mark

robert letts · Jul 19, 2008

second ride, went up the worst hill ever in the mendips, works brilliantly

robert letts · Jul 20, 2008

The design rationale for an electric bike (that mark has cleverly understood) is you need to keep the most rideable aspects of a good light road bike and just add a powerful hill climbing tool, thats all.

The electric part of the bike is absolutely minimal. I think this bike blows all the others out of the water.

Hopefully it will also cure the following two comments; 'thats cheating isnt it?' and/or 'does it charge up going downhill' , because most observers cannot tell its electric anyway....

flecc · Jul 21, 2008

robert letts said:
The design rationale for an electric bike (that mark has cleverly understood) is you need to keep the most rideable aspects of a good light road bike and just add a powerful hill climbing tool, thats all.

That's always been the best design rationale for power assist on bikes Robert, but the public at large don't seem to see it that way.

The petrol power assist units of the 1950s followed the ideal, light add-ons to good normal bikes, but most of the public migrated to scooters as soon as they appeared, and those who stayed with pedals were on the sole survivor of that era, the very heavy VeloSolex which had nothing in common with a good bike.

When the e-bike appeared from 1991, they were predominately light add-on kits for normal bikes, and although initially lumbered with lead acid batteries, NiMh ones soon appeared. This concept once again didn't suit the public, and by the end of the decade we had the very heavy first Lafree, the moped like Yamaha and the 40 kg Powabyke "tank", and they were what sold.

Giant then attempted to bring back the cycling element with the Panasonic equipped 22 kg Twist Lite with some good cycling qualities, but that failed to make sufficient inroads, the commonest complaint being not enough power though it easily fulfilled the hill climbing brief you mention.

That's been answered in the latest generation with an added High Power mode for occasional use, but what we see is most gearing them up to provide full time power and some using the High Power mode all the time.

The indicators remain that most of the buyers and potential buyers want fulltime high power as they've always done. Forums like this can be very misleading since only a tiny minority of e-bike users will ever visit it. With e-bike sales (UK) currently probably nearing 35,000 pa currently and at least 100,000 and probably more on the road, only one per cent are active members here.

The majority of the other 99% regard pedals as a handy place to rest their legs in between the occasional light twirls of them.
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Citrus · Jul 21, 2008

flecc said:
Forums like this can be very misleading since only a tiny minority of e-bike users will ever visit it. With e-bike sales currently probably nearing 35,000 pa currently and at least 100,000 and probably more on the road, only one per cent are active members here.
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However you forgot to factor in the Aldby factor, who owns 99% of all ebikes ever made and is an active forum member. By my calculations that means this forum has 100% coverage of all ebike owners in the U.K.

flecc · Jul 21, 2008

Citrus said:
However you forgot to factor in the Aldby factor, who owns 99% of all ebikes ever made and is an active forum member. By my calculations that means this forum has 100% coverage of all ebike owners in the U.K.

. Nice one

I won't make that much allowance, though I'll concede a reduction to 98%.

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DavidA · Jul 21, 2008

What an interesting thread. 34 pages of information, trip reports, photos, comparisons and even the odd bitchy comment. I love the internet!

I just thought I'd post to put a slightly different perspective. I live in Brighton, I'm 36 and in the lazy habit of driving to work despite it not being particularly far. Partly to force myself to stop driving and partly to be nice to the guys at work I'm converting the parking spots into a cycle park. About the only time I've ridden a bike since I was a teenager was the odd trip to Center Parcs.

I was thinking about buying a regular bike but like a lot of coastal places Brighton is pretty hilly. I don't fancy doing a full days work, getting worn out riding up the hill and then having to put the kids to bed. I thought about a Segway, which I love, but they cost a fortune and you open yourself up to ridicule. Last Friday I googled to see if electric bikes had come any further than the mum's-shopper-bike-with-a-big-battery style. I was about to give up when I came across the Cytronex.

When I saw the bike I assumed I was looking at the 'before' picture, i.e. before it had the motor added. It took me a while of looking for the 'after' pictures before I realised I was looking at it. From an aesthetic engineering point of view this is something of a milestone moment for ebikes. As I read earlier in this thread, the aim of the bike was to create something that avoided the usual social stigma of ebikes and amongst all this talk of wattage and ranges I think that point gets missed a little. If that was the goal from the start then they've achieved it in spades. Even when I asked some colleagues where they thought the battery was they failed to identify the rogue water bottle - the perfect crime!

With the government's ride to work scheme the bike works out at a little over £500 (if I've done my maths correctly). Since the unmodded bike retails at £350 (and gets some great reviews) the price is right. It might have to come a little lower before it's a real mass market proposition but since the modifications are hand built in the UK I can see how you'd get to that price.

I wish Mark and Sam the best of luck with this. I really hope they get the marketing budget to reach a wide market. If I were Trek I'd have Cytronex firmly in my sights as an acquisition target.

Many thanks to Chris for posting so many trip reports. Well written, informative and entertaining. Thanks also to John for providing the flickr photos, without which I think I'd still be doubting that I was looking at the 'after' pics! Speaking of which: Mark & Sam, more pics on your site please - you're underselling your product's best attribute.

I spoke to Mark today and will go up for a test ride once he has some more batteries in stock. Who knows, maybe I'll go there and be disappointed but I have a strong feeling I'll be leaving on two wheels.

Jeremy · Jul 22, 2008

flecc said:
The indicators remain that most of the buyers and potential buyers want fulltime high power as they've always done. Forums like this can be very misleading since only a tiny minority of e-bike users will ever visit it. With e-bike sales currently probably nearing 35,000 pa currently and at least 100,000 and probably more on the road, only one per cent are active members here.

The majority of the other 99% regard pedals as a handy place to rest their legs in between the occasional light twirls of them.

It's an interesting contrast to look at this forum, which seems to have a reasonably large proportion of cycling members looking for power assist, with the Endless Sphere forum, where the majority of members are trying to get as much electric motor power as possible into a bike................

I think it makes your point well, Flecc. The majority are indeed interested in outright power, at least if the popularity of the ES forum is anything to go by.

Another observation I've made is how busy the various electric vehicle forums are now getting. It seems that interest in EVs generally is growing at a rapid rate, no doubt due, in part, to the recent hike in oil prices.

Jeremy

Encantador · Jul 27, 2008

That`l be me then..........

Chris_Bike said:
I rather hope that Mark will have his new batteries in soon so that there can be some new contributors to this thread.

Hi Guys,

As a bit of an introduction, until about 3 weeks ago, I hadn’t heard of Kalkhoff, Cyclonex or even Pedelec (still not quite sure what it actually means).

At 52 and retired for 2 years I decided it was time to do some exercise, also like a lot of people I have started thinking about how and when I use my car (old 4x4) because of the cost of petrol. I live about 2 miles from town and a few times a week make my way in to meet the wife for lunch (she being the worker in the family), shopping etc.

So, the exercise idea eventually led me to the possibilit6y of buying a cycle and that led to possibly buying a e-bike, mainly for that little bit of help when required. I have never been athletic and since childhood have only ridden a cycle in one or two short bursts, the longest being when I used one to travel 2 miles to work and back about 7-8 years ago and that only lasted a few weeks.

I had made my mind up that I wanted a bike that looked as much as possible like a `normal` bike. I also wanted one that was easy to cycle without power as I was expecting to `run out` of power quite often, the reason for that will become clear.

The first problem was my size (as it always is), at 6ft 5in and over 19 stones I ruled out a few bikes immediately. Spoke to the very helpful guys at wisper who didn’t think I would be comfortable on the 905; this pretty much left me with the Kalkhoff and the Cyclonex.

To cut a long story short, I first spoke to Phil at Cyclonex a week last Friday and drove down last Tuesday and collected 2 of the Trek 7.3 FX`s, the first a 22.5 inch for me and a 17 inch for my wife. We had visited a local cycle shop and tried the bikes for size.

I had mudguards and racks fitted to both and had they been able to spare it, would have probably purchased a spare battery for mine. I have since added a stand to both and a Halfords `comfort saddle` to mine.

My plan is to use mine during the week when my wife’s battery will become my spare and when we hopefully go out together at the weekend, I will be doing a lot more peddling than she will be (she is 5ft3in and 8 stones).

We have had our first very short ride together today and are both very impressed. It’s nice to know when that hill comes along or that steady incline, you are not alone.

I know that Cyclonex owners seem to have been categorised as super human, athletic cycle gods, well, that we aint I can assure you.

I can’t assist with technical jargon and obviously can’t get involved in the discussions about which bike is the best, all I can say is that the Cyclonex is a nice looking bike, exceptionally well converted and it does what I want when I want it too.

We will only ever be leisure and no doubt fair weather cyclists, but who knows where it might take us.

I live in Stafford which is about 35 miles north of Birmingham and 50 miles south of Manchester and we are about 5 minutes from M6 J14. Anyone who wants to come and take a look at the Cyclonex before making the journey to Winchester, drop me a PM.

My only problem is trying to fine a bike rack that fits on a Honda CRV, which has a spare wheel on the rear door (right side) and the rear window opens vertically whilst the door opens sideways. I have a tow bar but the ones that seem to fit there go straight up and the wheel is in the way. I wanted to avoid using the roof but it may be the only solution. Anyone know of any other options?

Hope to be able to chip in where and when i can to hopefully put a little back into this forum which has been instrumental in making me spend 2 grand when I could have probably got away with £500 on a couple of Halfords specials had i not visited here so often, thanks guys.... (;0)

Steve

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