I've got one of each bike Keith, but guess which one gets laid up in the winter.
That's where and when the "makes sense" comes in.
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Trek Cytronex - First Impressions.
- Thread starter Chris_Bike
- Start date
That's where and when the "makes sense" comes in.
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guessing you use q bike for winter, and with them fat wheels splashing extra due to their wideness it sure does make sense....looks more respectable too and not like a chav...lol....wait for the incoming after that...lol.lol.
Delighted to hear all is going so well Mike and that you are getting 18 miles around Kinver. That leads me to hope for a similar range in Mid-Wales, which I have yet to test but would be great.
Hi All,
I have been meaning to post for a while now but with so much discussion here, each time I've caught up it's been past my bedtime!
Anyway, these are my honest impressions. Here goes:
Picked up my Treck Cytronex twelve days ago.
Background Stuff:
I'm 54 years old, 14.5 stone, put 2 stone on while suffering two consecutive frozen shoulders over the course of 5 years. I invested in this bike for two reasons:
1. To improve my fitness and
2. To be able to leave my car at home.
I live in the shadow of Kinver Edge, South Staffs. which I regard as a gravity well, whatever direction you choose to escape involves great expenditure of energy. When I was a younger and fitter man I would jog or cycle around but even then it was a struggle. They don't put gradient signs up round here, but some hills are the "out of saddle, legs burning, get off and push" type.
Bike Impressions:
My first ride was in Purley as I had done a "Round Robin" to pick up the bike and visit my daughter for the weekend.
As the battery needed to be charged, I took the bike out for a run without it. This was on a flattish stretch. I was immediately impressed with the smoothness and how easily the bike rolled. My thinking at that time was "This is great, why do I need a motor?
I crossed the main road into the hilly part (Don't know the area very well.) and realised very quickly that I was in the torture zone. I soon headed back to my daughter's to recover.
A couple of hours later, I felt better and took to the hills with the battery in!
What a difference! I clocked 8 miles up and down the hills with ease. Experimenting with easing right off and letting the motor take the strain at low speed on a long steep hill produced no problems. There was no controller cutting out or screams of protest from the motor’s internal roller drive.
Since then, battery range has increased, and after 5 conditioning cycles, the battery is lasting 18 miles back in the Kinver area, commuting to work, this is with moderate effort and coping with steep hills.
I am very happy with the bike, my fitness has increased already and my car is stopping on the drive so it’s all coming to plan! I have some accessories on order, rack, panniers and (apologies to some) mudguards. Will post some pics when they’re fitted.
All the best
Mike
I have a question for Flecc, you have a manual for the panasonic unit maintenance, it shows the rotor bearing socket as a metal cup.
Whilst on my way to work today I was considering ways to produce a power/speed graph for the Lafree. When it occured to me that when I stripped down my Lafree s motor I saw the small thrust washer and assumed it was there to stop the bearing wearing on the plastic casing.Do you know if all the panasonic motors should have this metal bearing socket? Mine came to me after being rescued from the River Wye, and was in a very sorry state, but originally I had only wanted the frame, hence I've had no problem experimenting with the motor unit.
Whilst on my way to work today I was considering ways to produce a power/speed graph for the Lafree. When it occured to me that when I stripped down my Lafree s motor I saw the small thrust washer and assumed it was there to stop the bearing wearing on the plastic casing.Do you know if all the panasonic motors should have this metal bearing socket? Mine came to me after being rescued from the River Wye, and was in a very sorry state, but originally I had only wanted the frame, hence I've had no problem experimenting with the motor unit.
I've only seen a motor with that metal cup like the one I'd photographed there Andrew, and it had the thrust washer as well, so I'd assume that's the standard configuration. Those outer bearings could sometimes fail and get very noisy, so it's conceivable that Panasonic has tried a larger bearing at some point, without the metal insert.
As ever though, they rarely release any information on changes.
.
As ever though, they rarely release any information on changes.
.
Thank you for answering, I'll take it apart again pull the bearing of and have a look at the fit.
Mike
It's nice to know I'm not the only one using electrics on the gravity hole, luckily I live on the sunny side of the edge.
Mike
It's nice to know I'm not the only one using electrics on the gravity hole, luckily I live on the sunny side of the edge.
Kick stand - did yours arrive John?
Hi John,
I hope you may be back from Berlin. Did your kick stand ever show up and, if so, did it fit OK? I ordered one just after you, but no sign.
Hi John,
I hope you may be back from Berlin. Did your kick stand ever show up and, if so, did it fit OK? I ordered one just after you, but no sign.
C
Cyclezee
Guest
Hi Chris,
Just got back today. I still haven't received the kickstand yet and have also not been debited for it
I did receive the Madison G12 Comfort saddle to replace the Bontrager one and tried it briefly. I can report it is much more comfortable.
J
hn
C
Cyclezee
Guest
Hi Mike,
I gave my battery 3 conditioning charges and you gave yours five. Why so many?
I am getting over 20 miles with moderate assistance in a moderately hilly area.
May I also ask, what is your average speed to date and are you using low power, high power or a combination of both?
J
hnHi John.
Yes, about 20 miles seems to be the ball park figure so far.
The 5 conditioning charges included the initial one by Cytronex so I carried out 4. Each one gave a range improvement and when I achieved the 18 miles on my hilly commuting route, (that is, 14 miles commute then random riding around 'till the battery gave out.) I was then satisfied that full battery conditioning had been reached.
At first I was quite fixated by the bike computer. Now, having confidence in the range I just reset the trip before setting out after a recharge, to gauge the battery juice, then enjoy the journey. The figures are: total miles since new 201, with an average 13.2, max. 33.8 for the last journey.
Getting more accustomed to the bike I find I'm sort of evolving my riding technique, using the motor on low then hi to get up to cruising speed on flat bits and when cresting a hill, cutting it off when not required. When a steep hill is reached, if speed drops below about 11mph I cut down to low power and drop a couple of mph, this is in order to save a few amps.
Taking the above into account plus my improving fitness
I'm thinking the range and average speed may well improve.
All the best,
Mike
Yes, about 20 miles seems to be the ball park figure so far.
The 5 conditioning charges included the initial one by Cytronex so I carried out 4. Each one gave a range improvement and when I achieved the 18 miles on my hilly commuting route, (that is, 14 miles commute then random riding around 'till the battery gave out.) I was then satisfied that full battery conditioning had been reached.
At first I was quite fixated by the bike computer. Now, having confidence in the range I just reset the trip before setting out after a recharge, to gauge the battery juice, then enjoy the journey. The figures are: total miles since new 201, with an average 13.2, max. 33.8 for the last journey.
Getting more accustomed to the bike I find I'm sort of evolving my riding technique, using the motor on low then hi to get up to cruising speed on flat bits and when cresting a hill, cutting it off when not required. When a steep hill is reached, if speed drops below about 11mph I cut down to low power and drop a couple of mph, this is in order to save a few amps.
Taking the above into account plus my improving fitness
I'm thinking the range and average speed may well improve.
All the best,
Mike
It's really good to hear that the three of us are all getting about the claimed 20 miles now - does this mean that I can loose my mutant status John(!)?
I'm really jealous of you guys as I was away last week, rained in over the weekend and am now in London till Friday. However, all being well, I hope to take the bike to Mid-Wales over the weekend, which will provide the most serious test of range so far.
I'm really jealous of you guys as I was away last week, rained in over the weekend and am now in London till Friday. However, all being well, I hope to take the bike to Mid-Wales over the weekend, which will provide the most serious test of range so far.
I guess it does
. And I suppose the question now is turned to "how is it achieved?"
Hello John
If your question is how does such a small size of battery achieve this range the answer is that when I designed Cytronex I looked at every area possible to optimise efficiency. The key factors are:
The battery cell really does play an important part, and I note that David Henshaw has mentioned the same thing reviewing a battery in the latest AtoB. Battery cell ratings do not take into account the kind of high currents experienced on an ebike. Some cells have a very high capacity when discharged at low currents but this goes out of the window at high currents. The cell we use is a special cell able to provide the same rated capacity at high currents. So most ebikes can only achieve their capacity if the terrain is always flat. The Cytronex battery punches well above its weight because in practice very high currents are required for hill climbing and our battery can handle this without loss of capacity.
The motor is actually very efficient (over 80%).
We hugely over rate all cabling and connections, keep cable lengths to the bare minimum and do away with all extraneous electronics, such as an on/off power switch. This prevents losses to heat.
The bike is of course very light at 17Kg.
Finally, by using a proper bicycle with a short wheelbase and a freewheel in the motor the bike is much more responsive and the overall cycling efficiency is very high.
Regards,
Mark
If your question is how does such a small size of battery achieve this range the answer is that when I designed Cytronex I looked at every area possible to optimise efficiency. The key factors are:
The battery cell really does play an important part, and I note that David Henshaw has mentioned the same thing reviewing a battery in the latest AtoB. Battery cell ratings do not take into account the kind of high currents experienced on an ebike. Some cells have a very high capacity when discharged at low currents but this goes out of the window at high currents. The cell we use is a special cell able to provide the same rated capacity at high currents. So most ebikes can only achieve their capacity if the terrain is always flat. The Cytronex battery punches well above its weight because in practice very high currents are required for hill climbing and our battery can handle this without loss of capacity.
The motor is actually very efficient (over 80%).
We hugely over rate all cabling and connections, keep cable lengths to the bare minimum and do away with all extraneous electronics, such as an on/off power switch. This prevents losses to heat.
The bike is of course very light at 17Kg.
Finally, by using a proper bicycle with a short wheelbase and a freewheel in the motor the bike is much more responsive and the overall cycling efficiency is very high.
Regards,
Mark
Mark,
That's (mainly) the power delivery side of the equation. How much did you look at the power requirement side? Rolling resistance will be very significant at the speeds reported here. I recently tried to find data on the rolling resistance of bicycle tyres but there seems to be very little around. Did you do any testing with tyres and which ones did you end up with?
Cheers John
That's (mainly) the power delivery side of the equation. How much did you look at the power requirement side? Rolling resistance will be very significant at the speeds reported here. I recently tried to find data on the rolling resistance of bicycle tyres but there seems to be very little around. Did you do any testing with tyres and which ones did you end up with?
Cheers John
C
Cyclezee
Guest
John,
The tyres are Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase, 700x32c. These are fitted as standard to the Trek 73.FX
j
hnSheldon Brown has a short, but good, piece on rolling resistance here:Rolling resistance of Tires by Jobst Brandt
In my experience, the biggest factors are:
1) Tred pattern - slicks always roll better than heavy tread patterns
2) Pressure - keep them pumped up as hard as practicable
3) Tyre compound - some of the racing compounds really do roll better.
The Racelites on the Trek are slick and do roll quite well. I replaced them with Continental GP 4 seasons (based in the GP 4000) and I feel that they roll even better.
The Mid-Wales Test
I completed my most hilly test today. The trip is to the local town for shopping. 8.7 miles away and dropping 1100 ft on the way out (and climbing the same altitude on the way back). The road rolls so there are hills to climb in both directions - the steepest about 12%.
I left the motor on low power both ways. The return trip had the panniers laden down with shopping. The trip was not without incident - I broke a spoke on the way there and had to buy a new one and effect a repair before return!
So how did the Cytrinex do? The battery died at 15 miles, about 2.4 mile short of home when nearly at the top of one of the steepest slopes. I did get a couple more bursts lasting about 0.5 miles after I had toiled on under my own steam for a bit. Average speed was 13.8 and maximum 29.8.
Overall, I'm reasonably pleased, the range seems roughly comparable with what Mike was getting around Kinver Edge (18 miles). It would have been nice to get the full 17.4 miles - I guess I might if I charged the battery just before the trip (todays was charged 2 days ago). I'm not sure whether to buy a second battery or to try to get fitter so I need the assistance less. If you can find a way of squeezing in about 20% more cells Mark, that would be great!
I completed my most hilly test today. The trip is to the local town for shopping. 8.7 miles away and dropping 1100 ft on the way out (and climbing the same altitude on the way back). The road rolls so there are hills to climb in both directions - the steepest about 12%.
I left the motor on low power both ways. The return trip had the panniers laden down with shopping. The trip was not without incident - I broke a spoke on the way there and had to buy a new one and effect a repair before return!
So how did the Cytrinex do? The battery died at 15 miles, about 2.4 mile short of home when nearly at the top of one of the steepest slopes. I did get a couple more bursts lasting about 0.5 miles after I had toiled on under my own steam for a bit. Average speed was 13.8 and maximum 29.8.
Overall, I'm reasonably pleased, the range seems roughly comparable with what Mike was getting around Kinver Edge (18 miles). It would have been nice to get the full 17.4 miles - I guess I might if I charged the battery just before the trip (todays was charged 2 days ago). I'm not sure whether to buy a second battery or to try to get fitter so I need the assistance less. If you can find a way of squeezing in about 20% more cells Mark, that would be great!
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