Trek Cytronex - First Impressions.

[flecc]

I dont agree with that Flecc at all. In my view, fumbling for buttons on the end of the bars when every single touch of the brakes turns off the power, is far from ideal. At least with the Panasonic system you have assistance on every press of the pedal.

This one the one thing that I found excellent about the Panasonic system, its simplicity.

John

I think you've misunderstood me John, since I wasn't saying the Cytronex was superior to it, and in fact I wouldn't personally like one for those conditions.

What I was saying is that the Panasonic system doesn't make for a particularly agile and responsive bicycle, particularly on a heavier machine like the Agattu. In this I agree with Hal that the narrow power band relative to cadence makes it impossible to stay with full power assist for quick acceleration in heavy traffic, since one quickly runs beyond the maximum assist point. That leaves two options. Work very much harder on the pedals to achieve the required acceleration or change up which delays acceleration with a hub gear.

In most circumstances the system is fine, but having commuted in and out of central London and throughout the West End and much of the City for much of the day over a nine year period, I fully understand what Hal means, though his Cytronex choice doesn't appeal to me.
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[JohnInStockie]

I think you've misunderstood me John, since I wasn't saying the Cytronex was superior to it, and in fact I wouldn't personally like one for those conditions.

What I was saying is that the Panasonic system doesn't make for a particularly agile and responsive bicycle, particularly on a heavier machine like the Agattu. In this I agree with Hal that the narrow power band relative to cadence makes it impossible to stay with full power assist for quick acceleration in heavy traffic, since one quickly runs beyond the maximum assist point. That leaves two options. Work very much harder on the pedals to achieve the required acceleration or change up which delays acceleration with a hub gear.

In most circumstances the system is fine, but having commuted in and out of central London and throughout the West End and much of the City for much of the day over a nine year period, I fully understand what Hal means, though his Cytronex choice doesn't appeal to me.
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I suppose that "what is best in a given scenario" is also quite rider specific. I can see how a Wisper or Ezee would be seen as most favoured, up until (for me) the point where you must use the throttle, which I presonally dont prefer.

John

 

[flecc]

I think that's it in a nutshell John, individual preference. For me I prefer a throttle in those circumstances since maximum power can be applied for the whole of the acceleration.

Where Hal is concerned I think the responsiveness could be more about the light bike of the Cytronex than the power control system. I don't regard e-bikes in general as anything like as responsive and agile as good unpowered light sports bikes, and the Cytronex is quite close to being one of those.
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[Encantador]

In my view, fumbling for buttons on the end of the bars when every single touch of the brakes turns off the power, is far from ideal.

When in traffic and I think i might want power, I simply hold the bar end, then there is no need for any fumbling. You have to be confident about only having access to the one brake lever though, all be it for only a few seconds, if that.

 

[JohnInStockie]

When in traffic and I think i might want power, I simply hold the bar end, then there is no need for any fumbling. You have to be confident about only having access to the one brake lever though, all be it for only a few seconds, if that.

I think thats why the Wisper pedal-assist looks good on paper to me, you dont have to twist a throttle, you dont have to look for a button, and you dont have to change gear.

John

 

[HarryB]

The buttons work much better than you think - in fact I was initially very sceptical about them as well. However you just have to get used to predicting the best time to press. I think the only design flaw is that they are set on the wrong side. The hand that wants to change gear and has the most powerful brake doesn't want to be switching on and off - better the other way round.

The Torq gave me terrible hand ache!

 

[poppy]

I´m beginning to get a bit confused. Until recently I thought that the Wisper was fast, heavy off motor and good only at moderate hills. KA and Agattu climbed all hills, the most similar to push bikes though slow and needed to put in some work. Cytronex was light, with little power and for sporty an fit bikers. Now I don´t know what to think after reading recent reviews.

 

[Encantador]

I´m beginning to get a bit confused. Until recently I thought that the Wisper was fast, heavy off motor and good only at moderate hills. KA and Agattu climbed all hills, the most similar to push bikes though slow and needed to put in some work. Cytronex was light, with little power and for sporty an fit bikers. Now I don´t know what to think after reading recent reviews.

Can`t help comparing the differences, but if it helps, I am nearly 20 stones and the Cytronex pulls me along at 11-12mph on the flat with no help from me whatsoever.
Obviously, that is not how it is designed to be ridden and I have no idea how long the battery would last.

 

[Cyclezee]

Can`t help comparing the differences, but if it helps, I am nearly 20 stones and the Cytronex pulls me along at 11-12mph on the flat with no help from me whatsoever.
Obviously, that is not how it is designed to be ridden and I have no idea how long the battery would last.

I wasn't able to achieve that performance on my Cytronex without pedalling and I'm 5 stone lighter

J hn

 

[Barnowl]

Just read this and took mine round the block. It's flat here and not much wind. I'm 13 stone with clothes on. I didn't use the pedals.

On the flat full power 15.3
very slight downhill incline 15.9

On the flat normal/lower power 12.1 - 12.6

 

[HarryB]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryB
...Of course this matters little if you are happy riding at speeds below 15mph as most people are.

I average 16.5 mph on my commute. I dont remember the last time I settled for less than 15mph on the flat, if I ever have.

Of course this is possible but I was deliberately restricting the discussion to legal electric bikes. Just so we are comparing like with like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryB
... but I am a lot less sweaty with the cytronex (oddly enough I am always very sweaty on the agattu???).

this sounds to me like you can maintain a good cadence?

Cadence is the main problem I have with the panasonics. All the power is at low cadences and personally my legs don't work work like that. So instead of being able to combine my power and the power of the bike I have to chose one over the other. The cytronex doesn't ask me to make that choice. If I was using low cadences regularly I would fear for my knees in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryB
...it has made many people happy, unfortunately not me.

Horses for courses
John

I don't dispute this and am not trying to do down the panasonic powered bikes in any way, just saying they don't suit all. If you are after an electric bike try to understand what sort of rider you are and try before you buy is the only advice I give.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Of course this is possible but I was deliberately restricting the discussion to legal electric bikes. Just so we are comparing like with like.

Sorry Harry, I didnt make myself very clear there. What I was trying to say was that it is more or less impossible to do less than 15mph on the flat on one of these bikes (and most/all others too), so I didnt understand what you were refering to.

Even on the standard PC or Twist, it was too easy to get to 15mph, the problem with these was the overgearing for nigh on vertical hills, although some peeps may wish to do that, for most completely unnessecary. On the standard PC, I would contest that you will naturally maintain a constant 16 or 17 mph on the flat, on my adjusted one for my route, I generally maintain 19-20mph on the flat without pushing it at all.

I do take your point about the cadence though and that with the Cytronex you get power whatever your cadence, which is both a bonus (if you want it) and a curse (using power you dont need and therefore reducing range), so I can understand why the Panasonic version is not for all.

John

 

[flecc]

Even on the standard PC or Twist, it was too easy to get to 15mph, the problem with these was the overgearing for nigh on vertical hills, although some peeps may wish to do that, for most completely unnessecary.

John

Technically having the gears too low is undergearing, but no matter.

However, the gearing on all the legal Panasonic motored bikes is not for hill climbing but only low to keep them legal, since gearing them normally leaves them able to apply motor power above the 15 mph/25 kph legal limit. It's an unavoidable legacy from a design to fit Japanese law.

It could be avoided with an external alteration though, a motor cut out switch which applied as soon as top gear was engaged at the handlebar control. Somewhat similar to our brake cut-out switches, this would make a lot of sense.
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[JohnInStockie]

It could be avoided with an external alteration though, a motor cut out switch which applied as soon as top gear was engaged at the handlebar control. Somewhat similar to our brake cut-out switches, this would make a lot of sense.
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Nice idea Flecc

John

 

[Encantador]

which is both a bonus (if you want it) and a curse (using power you dont need and therefore reducing range),
John

If range is an issue you just turn it off when you don`t need/want it.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Yep that would definately work, but so many with hub motor bikes dont do that, I guess just human nature.

John

 

[HarryB]

Agattu vs cytronex

Also I have been riding an agattu with a faulty battery. 50 cycles very quickly sent a new a replacement battery and I'll have to give it a go see if it makes any difference. So in its defence the agattu is very well put together and has excellent dealer support - it has made many people happy, unfortunately not me.

Just an update on the replacement battery as I am interested in being fair to the agattu.

Yesterday I used the agattu for my commute with the new battery installed. First impressions were that it was a lot more sprightly than I remembered when using it with the old failing battery but then again I only used it in high power setting. There were a couple of times I was left floundering on the wrong side of the traffic (over-taking traffic at the lights when they change to green). With the cytronex I would have zipped along - However I really do struggle with the weight of the agattu.

On the flat the cruising speed is faster than the cytronex - 18-19 mph being the norm. However it is much slower on the hills - down to about 9mph on the steepest slope I do. But overall a bit quicker with the 18 sprocket gearing mod.

Finally range. A very dissapointing 20 miles until the light started flashing. Originally with the original gearing I got about 35 mile. That 18 tooth sprocket really takes its toll. So it seems unless I ration the power substantially I would need to re-charge the battery at work so that is one of the advantages over the cytronex wiped out (the cytronex range under the same conditions is 18-20 miles). I was less sweaty than in the past (probably the faulty battery and limiting the power to med/low).

So two approaches - the cytronex uses very little power crusing mainly because you are just above the motor cut-off speed but more on the hills as it is making a greater contribution. The agattu the situation is reversed but the cruising speed is higher. Overall a simliar range but I suspect that the cytronex is slightly more efficient overall.

Anybody want a nearly new agattu with brand new battery???

 

[Danny-K]

...However it is much slower on the hills - down to about 9mph on the steepest slope I do.

It's good to read of owners who have issues with the Kalkhoff's as all the reviews seem to be unanimously positive, which seems a tad unrealistic. It's very difficult after paying four figures for something to then admit it was a mistake.

However, whilst I appreciate real-world owner reviews over 'journalist' reviews, from where I'm sitting 9mph up THE STEEPEST hills sounds damn good to me! Does that mean that you're now travelling FASTER than 9mph up, quote: 'the steepest slopes'?

 

[HarryB]

It's good to read of owners who have issues with the Kalkhoff's as all the reviews seem to be unanimously positive, which seems a tad unrealistic. It's very difficult after paying four figures for something to then admit it was a mistake.

However, whilst I appreciate real-world owner reviews over 'journalist' reviews, from where I'm sitting 9mph up THE STEEPEST hills sounds damn good to me! Does that mean that you're now travelling FASTER than 9mph up, quote: 'the steepest slopes'?

...about 13-14 mph on the cytronex but I am not about to get a spirit level out on the road to tell you what the gradient is. The panasonics will climb just about any gradient but they don't do it quickly.

 

[Danny-K]

...about 13-14 mph on the cytronex..

Hmm... impressive!

The panasonics will climb just about any gradient but they don't do it quickly.

Also impressive, ie., that the Panasonics will climb ANY gradient.
The thing is: Any gradient comfortably?
Or any gradient, but leaving the rider in a pool of sweat on the worst hills?