Trek Cytronex - First Impressions.

[flecc]

Yes I agree flecc

Now, if it came with a low profile battery with double the capacity & range, say 10Ah, which only added about a kilo to the weight...

Stuart.

The eZee Sanyo Li-polymer would fit on the downtube and it weighs only 3.3 kilos, raising the Cytronex weight to only 18.2 kilos, the 1.2 kilos extra being peanuts. Riders vary by very much more than that.

It stands far higher current drains than the Nano motor could demand, but on Mark's evidence could provide 50 miles or more range in normal Cytronex type use, with the option of running on high power all the time still with a quite long range.

It costs, but that's a big benefit gained.
.

 

[coops]

Like John, I think that prospective purchasers should test ride, which is easy to set up as Mark is just opposite Winchester Station.

I totally agree Chris (and arriving by train to test a bike is a nice way to go about it btw, having done the same myself ).

If it was me though, I'd also like to be aware (preferably before making the trip) of what I could expect in terms of range, speed & climbing ability/limits because these cannot be properly assessed from a test ride or reliably inferred from others' ride data.

I can fully understand manufacturers not wanting to provide technical data when it is potentially offputting to potential customers, but since these factors have been brought up here & a lack of clear information is causing confusion for those looking for a bike (Nigel's post is a case in point, caused by definitive data not being widely available) it would be useful to have some clarification.

Stuart.

 

[Chris_Bike]

Low power assits to about 12.5 Paul and high power to about 16. Having now done lots of rides, I can say that I get about 17/18 miles on high power and about 22/23 on low - that is on a hilly course, I've had 27 on a flatter one.

Let me say (before others do) that those figures obviously depend upon how much pedalling you do. It is not hard to exceed 12.5 on the flat without motor assist and impossible to avoid 16+ downhill. Having said that, I don't sweat on this bike.

I suspect it's easier to achieve these ranges than many of you think.

I think that both John and I have tried to report the actual ranges we have achieved Stuart (see above). These are genuine results with a real bike. The problem is that we keep getting challenged by others who have not actually ridden the bike. I find it hard to understand why.

Why don't we all agree that you should try before you buy (be it Pro Connect or Cytronex) and leave it at that?

 

[prState]

I think that both John and I have tried to report the actual ranges we have achieved Stuart (see above). These are genuine results with a real bike. The problem is that we keep getting challenged by others who have not actually ridden the bike. I find it hard to understand why.

Why don't we all agree that you should try before you buy (be it Pro Connect or Cytronex) and leave it at that?

I'm not sure if other factors have been discussed. Perhaps it should be noted (in the Treks favor) that it is most likely a well designed bike for traveling without a motor in the first place. Perhaps that is skewing the results of impressions, that is not being accounted for.

Plus it doesn't sound like it was burdened with a heavy hub motor or less then optimum gearing type system which is too often the case.

I will note that even on a flat, my Lafree is easy to pedal, but it is still different than when I've engaged the motor. One is mild effort at best, and the other is like an easy chair. But that's still different.

I'm trying not to come down too hard on either side, but trying to account for other explanations.

 

[JohnInStockie]

I have to say having ridden the one at Presteigne numerous times that it was a very easy-rolling bike. I personally liked it very much, and felt it was a much better ride than any of the Kalkhoffs which felt cumbersome to me (it surprised me that they didnt feel as easy as my Twist) the only other as enjoyable was the Wisper (to me).

I know there is much debate on this, and I average about 15mph on my Twist, but I can see how this bike would be an excellent choice for a commuter who want to :-
- lose weight and get fitter,
- have some assistance when 'not in the mood' (which is where unpowered bikes lose their appeal),
- save money vs the car,
- and importantly, have a bike that they CAN ride as an unpowered bike on days out and the like, which you cannot do with my Twist, the Kalkhoffs, and the Wispers of this world.

To me, that last point is an important one, as its one less bike to have to store.

The only issue I have is that I would require mudguards and a rack, and then with all my gear on, would I be able to get the 12 miles out of it at high assist all the way to work on a rainy day into the wind?

John

 

[JohnInStockie]

Hi Scott

I know its horses for courses, but there is a vast difference between the 2 in my experience. I've set up my Giant (exactly the same drive system as a Kalkhoff) to be as ridable for me as I can, and even that was nowhere near as good as the Trek. The Trek felt like a good road bike, and as such was a dream to ride.

My Giant is an excellent electric bike, but it is not a good conventional bike, its merely barley adequate, its simply far too heavy, and I would say your putting the Kalkhoffs down as ebikes in making that comparison, cos as ebikes theyre brill.

Again, its only my opinion.

John

 

[flecc]

Certainly the Kalhoff bikes with the latest Panasonic unit are as free rolling as any normal hub gear bikes, and with the tyre choices fitted as standard are actually better than many. It's important to note however that these systems do not attain their full free rolling character until one or two hundred miles have been covered to run everything in.

In one respect though they are not be able to compete with a normal bike for riding without power, and that's hill climbing, since their extra weight has to be propelled up the hill.

However, if a Pro Connect is ridden as a normal bike without the battery in, it's weight will be reduced to a little over 18 kilos, so it will not be too disadvantaged against the typical 14 to 17 kilo equivalent normal bikes.
.

 

[Chris_Bike]

I think I have said before that I actually went to Presteigne this year to buy a Pro Connect (well, 2 probably). It was my wife (who isn't the cyclist) who was first won over by the Cytronex. Then I tried it and felt the same way.

This is not to criticise the Kalkhoff, which is a great bike (perhaps more in the continental roadster school). But everything that people who have ridden the Trek say about its light and fast feel is correct. The hub offers no more resistance when switshed off than many conventional wheels.

 

[Cyclezee]

As you say Scott, you, along with most contributors have not ridden a Cytronex. I have not ridden a Pro-Connect, but a have done a lot of miles on both my Agattus which is not that much heavier than a Pro-Connect.
I would never choose to ride an Agattu unassisted as I personally find it hard work, wheras the Cytronex requires a lot less effort with the power off. They are both fine bikes, but quite different and require a different riding technique to get the best out of them.

J hn

 

[JohnInStockie]

I am not going to disagree with any of the above comments, as I dont own either a Trek or a Pro-connect (unfortunately ), all I can do is say that the design of the Trek, makes its an excellent conventional bike, one of the most free-rolling bikes I have ever tried, and considerably better than my Twist without the battery in, by a long mark.

How that stands up to the Pro-connect I dont know. But I did try the Kalkhoffs at Prestigne (were they cross framed Aggattus though??) and they were not comparable without power, in my view, they just werent.

Just like Chris, I went to Presteigne specifically for me and the wife to try out the Kalkhoffs 1st, against the Wispers 2nd, and if lucky, the Brompton Nano (which was great) 3rd, and didnt expect the Treks at all! Thats why trying this bike out is more important as some will love it and some wont.

I see the Kalkhoffs, Gazelles, and old Twist in the same league. Excellent ebikes at the forefront of the panasonic assistance technology. I see the Wispers and Ezees as powerful car replacements fast and fun (big grin bikes), and I see this Trek as the best of the conventional types as the free-rolling was the best, and even with the battery on, was an exceptionally light bike.

John

 

[JohnInStockie]

As you say Scott, you, along with most contributors have not ridden a Cytronex. I have not ridden a Pro-Connect, but a have done a lot of miles on both my Agattus which is not that much heavier than a Pro-Connect.
I would never choose to ride an Agattu unassisted as I personally find it hard work, wheras the Cytronex requires a lot less effort with the power off. They are both fine bikes, but quite different and require a different riding technique to get the best out of them.

J hn

John

You are the only person that can do this comparison, so your view on which bike for which circumstance is the best advice on the forum, full stop, so please keep it coming.

John

 

[Cyclezee]

John

You are the only person that can do this comparison, so your view on which bike for which circumstance is the best advice on the forum, full stop, so please keep it coming.

John

I was going to do an average speed comparison of the Cytronex and my diamond frame Agattu this morning by riding the same route as taken to condition the Cytronex battery. However the Sigma speedo supplied with the Agattu does not record average speed. I could have done it using my wave frame Agattu, but that is setup for my wife, and I didn't have the time to change it.
Everything I have posted todate is my own personal opinion and I would urge other potential buyers to try before they buy and see what suits them. Not something I have done in the past, but maybe I sould practice what I preach infuture. I won't be around for a week or so, therefore I won't be posting again before I return.
As I have said before, It would be nice to read some other owners opinions, assuming there are other Cytronex owners apart from myself and Chris.

J hn

 

[Andrew harvey]

No fighting please gentlemen.

I've been aware of this forum for a year or so, but have never known how to use them, hence I actualy registered under my own name, should I change that?
The, are the Cytronix any good, argument has turned me into Mr Angry of Kent, except that I don't live there.
Now I hate to stir the pot, but surely I remember Giant saying the Lafree had a range of about 40 miles on what was it a 180/190 Wh battery, surely therefore it's as reasonable to say that the Cytronix can do 20 miles with 60% of the battery capacity.
I know some will argue that the Lafree was a very efficient system, but then it did make the rider do most of the work, motor efficiency is limited to about 80% (a question of physics).
If we say it only takes 100 W to ride a bike at 15 mph, that gives a maximum range of 22.8 miles, so thats 57% of the power needed for the journey provided by the electrics and I am I think you will agree being charitable.
The other point is that the Lafree had a poorly designed torque sensor control that meant that you had to pedal hard to get full power, off putting to non cyclists.
The Urban Movers I've tried do a far better job, they also has a true torque sensor but from memory I'm sure it was also speed compensated to allow for pedaling fast in low gear, as you might on hills.
I have ridden Kalkhoff at Prestigne and I felt it a huge improvement over the Lafree, faster, sportier, but on the day only one bike shouted out to be bought the younger, freasher Cytronix.
I have no vested interest here, but am in the process of buying a local bike shop.
I have been building my own electric bikes for a good few years and have used Tongxin motors and can vouch for there reliability and economy, if you have any doubts on the score with these motors ask Tony Castles he's realy tried to break them.
Could we not just agree to wish the Cytronix team sucess.
One more point if I can't find the spellchecker on this I'm going to look a complete simpletonne.
Andy.

 

[flecc]

I've been aware of this forum for a year or so, but have never known how to use them, hence I actualy registered under my own name, should I change that?

Welcome Andrew, there's no need to change it, many members use their own names in various forms.

Now I hate to stir the pot, but surely I remember Giant saying the Lafree had a range of about 40 miles on what was it a 180/190 Wh battery,
I know some will argue that the Lafree was a very efficient system, but then it did make the rider do most of the work,

I'm afraid this is well off the mark. The Lafree NiMh battery was 156 Wh, and Giant never claimed it's normal range was 40 miles. They referred to that as possible using only the Eco mode all the time which few if any would ever do, the range in Standard mode was published as 20 to 24 miles, subsequently borne out in practical tests by A to B and others. I used to average 22 miles when my battery was new

The system did not make the rider do most of the work, the proportion was 50%, one half. On the later Panasonic system, the Standard mode is still 50%, the High Power mode 43% from the rider.

The other point is that the Lafree had a poorly designed torque sensor control that meant that you had to pedal hard to get full power, off putting to non cyclists.

You need to pedal slowly to get maximum power, and then apply more pressure to get more power. The latter is something that anyone will understand, whether cyclist or not, logically more effort to get more results. The system was and is widely recognised as the best pedelec system ever designed. For a full explanation of how and why the system works so well, see here and here.

The Urban Movers I've tried do a far better job, they also has a true torque sensor but from memory I'm sure it was also speed compensated to allow for pedaling fast in low gear, as you might on hills.

Not according to quite a few owners in this forum who have heavily criticised it for it's feel. As you say it did have the advantage of allowing high cadences, something the standard Panasonic system doesn't allow with full power on either the old Lafree or new Kalkhoffs.

Could we not just agree to wish the Cytronix team sucess.

I've posted several times welcoming this enterprise, stating that there's long been a need for such a product. However, no bike can be exempted from critical examination as is constantly being attempted in this forum with the Cytronex. If it's a good product, it will stand up to that examination, and attempting to stifle debate will only create the suspicion that there's something to hide.

One more point if I can't find the spellchecker on this I'm going to look a complete simpletonne.
Andy.

Please don't worry about that Andrew. No-one is likely to be small minded enough to think that, and if anyone dared to criticise on those grounds they would soon be corrected. I think you'll need to use your browser's spell checker, I'm not aware of a forum one.
.

 

[Chris_Bike]

So why have I had so much grief from this forum (including Flecc) for claiming this range for the Cytronex with exactly this sized battery. I'm afraid that a lifetime in politics tells me that there are other issues coming into play here. Can we have an honest declaraton of interests? I have none - no commercial interests wth cytronex.com or no-hills.com. I just want people to be well informed. I do hope all contributors can assert similar independence.

 

[andyh2]

Subjective riding experience, objective customer experience

I had 2 rides on the Cytronex and decided it's not for me.

I was impressed with the quality of the conversion. I loved how I could easily cycle up a big steep hill I'd normally avoid. I don’t know its gradient. I do know it’s a mile long and without the motor it’s a bottom (20”) gear 3-4mph ‘I don’t know if I can go much further hill’. With the Cytronex it was a 7-8mph ‘I can do this with a bit of effort no problem’ experience.

On the flat after getting up to 5mph and starting the motor it could pull me (14 stone) along with no pedaling up to set speed. On gradients that I’d normally happily ride up, but need to get out of the saddle for, it needed a modest seated input.

I can see how the assist to 12.5 (or 15.5) works great for commuting. I found myself spinning along nicely and naturally wanting to keep pedaling whenever the motor was on. Though on leisure rides I like to slow down at times and just look at 'stuff'. I could do that with motor off, but I could hear the hub whenever I cut the motor. It was really quiet when on and oddly it seemed louder when off. Though it was probably in my mind, it made me feel like there was an additional resistance.

I don’t have any comment on range as I just did 2 battery conditioning rides.

I used my own favourite saddle for the rides, but where the bike didn’t work for me was I wasn't going to get comfortable on a rigid alu frame and fork flat bar road bike set up and, because the conversion is so well tailored, you're limited to minor stem tweaking and can't change the bars. Bringing the more comfort oriented 7300 as a base bike into the product line up should improve on this for some customers.

Cost wise it’s good if the range with one battery is fine for you. If you need an extra battery and want to add rack and panniers then the cost, and weight, come closer to the Agattu. Though as noted several times above it is different target markets.

Mark was very helpful in making suggestions for getting more comfortable. On recognising it wasn’t going to work out for me we agreed that I’d send the bike back. I thought I'd take a hit on shipping costs and a reasonable re-stocking fee and then probably try one of the Kalkhoff Agattus. Whilst I'd be swallowing my pride on the style, it might well suit me better, especially as it would be good for transporting a child.

An expensive way to ‘test ride’, but reasonable compared to a return trip from Perth to Winchester. Well it would have been if it hadn’t been for the closing chapter in the separate ‘bike posting cautionary tale’ post.

I really do think it's an excellent product for its target market. The service from Mark was prompt and very helpful. It certainly wasn’t Marks' fault if I do that middle age man thing of going for a nice looking 'sports car' when what I need is a 'family saloon'.

 

[flecc]

So why have I had so much grief from this forum (including Flecc) for claiming this range for the Cytronex with exactly this sized battery. I'm afraid that a lifetime in politics tells me that there are other issues coming into play here. Can we have an honest declaraton of interests? I have none - no commercial interests wth cytronex.com or no-hills.com. I just want people to be well informed. I do hope all contributors can assert similar independence.

Let's start by saying that I do not appreciate an inference of other interests, since I take that as a personal insult. If I had I would not be operating in here at all in my present capacity, and in any other capacity I would declare any interest with every posting.

It is precisely this lack of technical understanding you show that is causing us problems and making us to question. It's capacity in Ampere hours that determines the range, voltage has virtually no influence as I have already pointed out to Mark in response to his claim that using the battery hot off the charger for peak volts extended the range. The amount of any such extension is miniscule.

In the interests of accuracy, the Cytronex 4 Ah battery does not have "exactly this size of battery". It's Wh rating is 144, not 156 as I quoted for the Lafree battery. The reason the Wh figure is close is because the Cytronex is a 36 volt system, the Lafree a 24 volt. 36v x 4Ah = 144 Wh, and 24 x 6.5 Ah is 156 Wh.

The reason the Lafree gets it's 20 mile range from 6.5 Ah is the excellence of it's integrated software control, unique in the e-bike world. The consumption in the Cytronex is far more under the rider's control and is therefore subject to the rider's desires and skills, or lack of them.

You say this:

"I just want people to be well informed. I do hope all contributors can assert similar independence."

but as I've just shown, you are not well informing people when you make these errors. People are better informed when knowledgeable and qualified critics examine and analyse the product.

And as an owner you are far less independent than me, since I neither own the bike nor have any reason for any outcome for it, commercial or otherwise.
.

 

[prState]

I really do think it's an excellent product for its target market. The service from Mark was prompt and very helpful. It certainly wasn’t Marks' fault if I do that middle age man thing of going for a nice looking 'sports car' when what I need is a 'family saloon'.

Maybe we should start trying to standardize electric bike categories (if we don't do it, someone else might)

maybe like:

Comfort Assist Electric (Kal..)
Comfort/Sport Electric (Pro Con)
Sport Assist E... (Nano trek)
Comfort Full Assist E... (Sprint)
Sport Full Assist E... (Torq)

Then we can argue about that.

My criterias avoid hub or pedalic

Just, assist leisurely, assist sportingly, (capable of self) propulsion leisurely, or propel sportingly

 

[Chris_Bike]

It is precisely this lack of technical understanding you show that is causing us problems and making us to question. It's capacity in Ampere hours that determines the range, voltage has virtually no influence as I have already pointed out to Mark in response to his claim that using the battery hot off the charger for peak volts extended the range. The amount of any such extension is miniscule.

In the interests of accuracy, the Cytronex 4 Ah battery does not have "exactly this size of battery". It's Wh rating is 144, not 156 as I quoted for the Lafree battery. .

As somebody who designed and built my own off-grid low voltage system (24V, 610 Ah storage) and has run it for the past 20 years, I think I can lay claim to a little technical understanding........

2 points:

1) The capacity of the Cytronex battery is 156 Wh as posted (and extensively discussed) in my previous thread: http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/2113-anyone-else-ordered-trek-nano-cytronex.html

2)Watts (V x A) is the unit of power, it determines how quickly you boil your kettle and the torque/speed delivered by your motor, and of course voltage makes a difference. If I halve the volts and double the amps, the power remains the same.

 

[john]

I could do that with motor off, but I could hear the hub whenever I cut the motor. It was really quiet when on and oddly it seemed louder when off. Though it was probably in my mind, it made me feel like there was an additional resistance.

My motor was the same when new, almost silent when running and a little noise when free-wheeling, although others have reported the opposite.

With the motor running you just have rolling contact which can be very quiet if the rollers are soothe and accurately ground. When free-wheeling you have metal sliding over metal, hence the more noise.