TONIGHT 9pm: - E-Bikes: The Battle for Our Streets - Panorama

[portals]

It isn't fraudulent. When they stamp it 250w, it means that it can handle 250w. It must be able to run at 250w at optimum rpm indefinitely without over-heating. It complies with that. There is no requirement for how much extra power it can handle.

You still seem to have the idea in your head that the law limits the output power somehow. It doesn't. They tell you want the rating must be and how to test it. If it passes the test, it's compliant.

By that logic why is a 1500W hub illegal, it would run forever at 250W continuous at optimum rpm indefinitely without over-heating?

And no requirement for how much extra power it can handle so sticker granted?

So they don't care about peak current only continuous, even if it can peak at 1800W because
'there is no requirement for how much extra power it can handle?

Eh?

 

[Woosh]

By that logic why is a 1500W hub illegal, it would run forever at 250W continuous at optimum rpm indefinitely without over-heating?

And no requirement for how much extra power it can handle so sticker granted?

So they don't care about peak current only continuous, even if it can peak at 1800W because
'there is no requirement for how much extra power it can handle?

Eh?

It is illegal because the manufacturer wants to sell it as high speed motor.
Typically, Chinese manufacturers rate their motor based on the average speed the motor will deliver for a typical user. If the motor is capable of averaging 30mph, they would call it 1500W.
For road legal motors, manufacturers aim at 18mph capable. That leaves enough margin for practical deployment.
Besides this practical power rating, motors intended for road legal bikes need appropriate labelling. The 250W label is to fulfil this requirement.

 

[lenny]

Bicycle Association formally complains to BBC over Adrian Chiles’ e-bike Panorama “misrepresentation”, claiming episode “unjustifiably damaged” legal e-bike industry
The cycle industry organisation said the programme conflated e-bikes with “illegal e-motorbikes”, lacked balance, and “failed to properly inform the public”
"Elsewhere in the complaint, Chiles’ claim in the episode that the laws and regulations around e-bikes are “unclear or insufficient” was branded “factually incorrect”.

“The law is completely clear about what is or is not a road legal e-bike (EAPC),” the association said. “Any electrically powered two-wheeler that is not a road legal e-bike (EAPC), or a properly type approved and registered e-moped/e-motorbike, is an illegal e-motorbike."

Bicycle Association formally complains to BBC over Adrian Chiles’ e-bike Panorama “misrepresentation”, claiming episode “unjustifiably damaged” legal e-bike industry

The cycle industry organisation said the programme conflated e-bikes with “illegal e-motorbikes”, lacked balance, and “failed to properly inform the public”

road.cc

 

[lenny]

Independent cycle traders 'hate the division' that BBC Panorama e-bike documentary 'tried to sow'
""I think the programme probably achieved what it wanted to," he said. "Nearly everyone watching it, either for or against e-bikes, was angry by the time the opening credits finished. There were multiple shots of e-motorbikes, and a lot fewer of e-bikes."

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/independent-cycle-traders-hate-the-division-that-bbc-panorama-e-bike-documentary-tried-to-sow

 

[matthewslack]

It isn't fraudulent. When they stamp it 250w, it means that it can handle 250w. It must be able to run at 250w at optimum rpm indefinitely without over-heating. It complies with that. There is no requirement for how much extra power it can handle.

You still seem to have the idea in your head that the law limits the output power somehow. It doesn't. They tell you want the rating must be and how to test it. If it passes the test, it's compliant.

What would be interesting to see tested in court (has it ever been? I'm too new to all this to know the history) a motor capable of indefinitely operating at say 500W without overheating, but 'rated' at 250W.

Such a motor passes the measurement test, because the test is designed to assess minimum not maximum continuous power.

Higher courts, if troubled with the issue, would need to rule on the intent of the legislation, which I suspect would come down in a rather more limited way than current practice.

Opponents have a valid point as long as motors well beyond 250W continuous capability are allowed, and it remains trivial via either settings or dongles to bypass the assistance speed limit.

 

[lenny]

Deconstructed: The BBC’s Panorama e-bike segment and its many flaws

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/deconstructed-the-bbcs-panorama-e-bike-segment-and-its-many-flaws

 

[Peter.Bridge]

What would be interesting to see tested in court (has it ever been? I'm too new to all this to know the history) a motor capable of indefinitely operating at say 500W without overheating, but 'rated' at 250W.

Such a motor passes the measurement test, because the test is designed to assess minimum not maximum continuous power.

Higher courts, if troubled with the issue, would need to rule on the intent of the legislation, which I suspect would come down in a rather more limited way than current practice.

Opponents have a valid point as long as motors well beyond 250W continuous capability are allowed, and it remains trivial via either settings or dongles to bypass the assistance speed limit.

Basically, at very low speeds, no hub motor will be able to output 250 W because it is operating in an extremely inefficient fashion so would certainly not be able to output 250 w continuously - e.g. a 48V AKM 128 with a 48V 20 amp controller (nominally rated at 800W) going up a 25% hill with 50w of human power can only manage 189 w (and I imagine would overheat very quickly) despite it being rated as 800w by the manufacturer

e.g.

Futility of Motor Power Ratings

"There's no such thing as a rated watt!" Read here for why we don't advertise a simple power rating for the motors we sell. Also, have a look at our Youtube video where Justin talks about the power to propel bicycles in <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALde6zhLPs0">"School of Watts"</a>.

ebikes.ca

 

[Az.]

What would be interesting to see tested in court (has it ever been? I'm too new to all this to know the history) a motor capable of indefinitely operating at say 500W without overheating, but 'rated' at 250W.

Indeed it would be interesting to watch. Law is very clear in that case. Judge would ask you which part of "no more than 250W continuous rated power" you don't understand and if 500W is more or less than 250W.

...and of course 250W rated motor might be able to operate at 500W. All you need to comply is 250W rating. Just choose motor which is optimal for your application and legal. It can be done is almost all cases.

...or choose illegal motor and be part of the problem.