TONIGHT 9pm: - E-Bikes: The Battle for Our Streets - Panorama

[portals]

They don't advertise the bike lanes here (that were previously part of the road that they have 'sectioned' off with some paint...), to pedestrians as that would be chaos, could you imagine if people started to walk on edge of the road with kids and prams and dogs etc. rather than on pavement?

Therefore using mixed lanes as infrastructure is not the correct strategy, it's completely wrong and they need to segregate cars from bikes from people if they want to plan for the future, it really should just be that simple, make the decision then implement it now.

There will always be recreational areas and paths etc. where mixed use will be required and that's where all should be tolerant, however the A->B infrastructure bike lanes should be segregated else it's not investing is it but just pissing about with paint and planters and very expensive pothole loving monoblocking.

As side note last mixed use 'crash' I saw was very later summer on Kelvin way when was out with child and drone, a taught dog lead took out a middle aged jogger and the old lady whose dog it was...both on ground and ambulance called.

Wonder how many of these types of accidents dogs (or rather their owners) actually cause, I'm going to email Panorama and suggest the write a treatment for that...

 

[guerney]

I started to watch this and about 2 minutes in Mr. Chiles appears on screen and he's having his first ride on an E-Bike. His opening comment was, "These are an absolute doddle to ride, it's just a cheat."

I turned it off.

Fuzzy programme with a couple of soundbites intended to stoke controvery. Waste of time.

Where wattage is concerned. There is NO maximum wattage specified. So long as the motor is RATED by the manufacturer at 250W it is legal in the UK.

They never ever mention that in any article or TV programme.

20-22mph is the sweet spot on a bike in decent conditions (for me anyway, strikes the balance of getting me somewhere in a reasonable time (I got rid of my car 7 months ago as experiment) versus feeling safe as still in control of bike).

If the law was 20mph I would certainly look to downgrade and consider becoming fully legal, however, the 20mph would need to be attainable on steep hills too...

Limit ALL traffic to 20mph = no need for cycle lanes. I shall write to The King.

 

[portals]

Limit ALL traffic to 20mph = no need for cycle lanes. I shall write to The King.

That is actually a very sensible idea on paper in town, but for example most of central London is now 20mph but with little segregation anywhere that I've seen?

So because the speeds are lower congestion just builds up even more so you got bikes/ebikes/mopeds/scooters etc. all weaving more and darting up alleyways to get through jams. Look at Euston Rd, used to be 10mins to get cab from Euston station to Edgeware Rd, now it's 20+mins in just few yrs. It can only get worse.

Seperate the traffic in to cars/bikes/people. Then we can all at our own pace get where we need to be safely.

 

[saneagle]

Context 250w limit being rated power, not actual power:

They never ever mention that in any article or TV programme.

That's because they don't prepare and do research for their programs, but how would they know what questions to ask and what research to do, when most of the guys on this forum can't even get it right after having it explained to them many times?

 

[portals]

It is definitive. The motor's power has either been rated by the manufacturer or not.

It is a bit nuts though, isn't it?

As long as a piece of paper or a sticker or a stamp from the manufacturer certifies it as 250W then we're all good so law has to accept that as proof?

Has this ever been been called or challenged in any court of law?

Does the court case come down well the motor is stamped at 250W from manufacturer so I'll have my bike back plus expenses please?

If I buy a 'stamp' machine for a few quid and remove the throttle (I use it mainly being lazy, the KT controller delivers enough power through PAS so really could get rid of it), what then? It's 'legal' so then they have to 'disprove' that, how they going to do that?

I'd prefer 500W. anarchy, just like we have right now..

 

[Az.]

Does the court case come down well the motor is stamped at 250W from manufacturer so I'll have my bike back plus expenses please?

Your motor is illegal, isn't it? So you wont get it back and won't have expenses paid.

If I buy a 'stamp' machine for a few quid and remove the throttle (I use it mainly being lazy, the KT controller delivers enough power through PAS so really could get rid of it), what then? It's 'legal' so then they have to 'disprove' that, how they going to do that?

You can't rate motor. Manufacturer can. I have a proof of purchase of 250W rated motor, right sticker and certificate of conformity.

I'd prefer 500W anarchy, just like we have right now..

Makes no sense to me at all. I prefer legal motor rated 250W and run it at 750W. Legal and more powerful than yours.

...but have it your way.

 

[portals]

Your motor is illegal, isn't it? So you wont get it back and won't have expenses paid.

That's my point, how is it illegal if it was 'rated' at 250W?

And what's the definition of manufacturer that would stand up in court? At what 'point in time' is the motor defined as being a motor as opposed to just parts? Out of factory, builder assembling it from parts then messing with it, retailer selling it...they all use stamps right?

You can't rate motor. Manufacturer can. I have a proof of purchase of 250W rated motor, right sticker and certificate of conformity.

Proof of purchase does not prove power neither does a toy 'sticker' and the certificate 'conforms' the bike to what exactly? Who 'conformed' it? The Chinese manufacturer, the importer, both, the geezer on ebay? That trumps my stamped dinner plate swearing it's 250W?

Makes no sense to me at all. I prefer legal motor rated 250W and run it at 750W. Legal and more powerful than yours.

Only a slight hint of hypocrisy, safety now out window and it's my dad is bigger than yours?

 

[portals]

I forgot the full stop after 500W. As you have already mentioned legality doesn't affect power, speed, safe driving or crashes or really anything...so why bleat on about 250W?

 

[Az.]

That's my point, how is it illegal if it was 'rated' at 250W?

Is it really? Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought your motor is rated 350W?

And what's the definition of manufacturer that would stand up in court? At what 'point in time' is the motor defined as being a motor as opposed to just parts? Out of factory, builder messing with it, retailer selling it...they all use stamps right?

There is a procedure to follow. I have seen it somewhere. Long story short - neither of us needs to know. It is up to manufacturer. All what we need is 250W rated motor.

Who 'conformed' it? The Chinese manufacturer, the importer, both, the geezer on ebay? That trumps my stamped dinner plate swearing it's 250W?

I got mine from Woosh - reputable British distributor. Woosh got certificate from Tongsheng I guess.

Only a slight hint of hypocrisy, safety now out window and it's my dad is bigger than yours?

Why hypocrisy? I see no point in having illegal bike. As esteemed pedelecer you should be able to design and build powerful, repairable, cheap and legal system. Having illegal, low powered and dinner plate size (shouting I AM ILLEGAL!) is like combining all worst possible aspects in one design.

As you have already mentioned legality doesn't affect power, speed, safe driving or crashes or really anything...so why bleat on about 250W?

Legality is super important when it comes to crashing. Try to use illegal vehicle without insurance and license, be part of serious accident and see what happens.

 

[portals]

Is it really? Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought your motor is rated 350W?

I have three rear hub bikes at the moment of varying power and state of use. All are rated as 250W. Now

Especially the 1500W one. But I could just be making this up, copper/

There is a procedure to follow. I have seen it somewhere. Long story short - neither of us needs to know. It is up to manufacturer. All what we need is 250W rated motor.

It's all made up rubbish innit though to suit the suppliers, no? Pants...stamp them at 250Pants. I saw that somewhere yrs ago.

I got mine from Woosh - reputable British distributor. Woosh got certificate from Tongsheng I guess.

No issues with Woosh, but again, 250W advertised...running at 750W, legal because of a 'certificate', and a 'magic' controller it's almost like an open joke now?

Why hypocrisy? I see no point in having illegal bike. As esteemed pedelecer you should be able to design and build powerful, repairable, cheap and legal system. Having illegal, low powered and dinner plate size (shouting I AM ILLEGAL!) is like combining all worst possible aspects in one design.

I'm an electronic engineer by trade, it's also become a hobby over years with bikes, drones, slot cars, 3d printers and music gear etc etc. so I understand mostly how these electricaltronic things work so pls don't come back and attempt to patronise me.. ;-)

Legality is super important when it comes to crashing. Try to use illegal vehicle without insurance and license, be part of serious accident and see what happens.

True, when I've been destroyed by some w@nker in the wrong lane and I'm lying bleeding to death with my guts hanging out and just noticed that my legs have 'gone' I will be shitting it that I don't have insurance...

 

[Az.]

It's all made up rubbish innit though to suit the suppliers, no? Pants...stamp them at 250Pants. I saw that somewhere yrs ago.

Whole law is written to protect interests of certain groups. Nothing new under the sun.

No issues with Woosh, but again, 250W advertised...running at 750W, legal because of a 'certificate', and a 'magic' controller it's almost like an open joke now?

You can overclock processors too.

I'm an electronic engineer by trade

That is even more disappointing. I hope you didn't adopt similar rebellious attitude at work. Perhaps you would like to explain why? What is the logic behind having illegal motor?

True, when I've been destroyed by some w@nker in the wrong lane and I'm lying bleeding to death with my guts hanging out and just noticed that my legs have 'gone' I will be shitting it that I don't have insurance...

What about reversed scenario?

 

[lenny]

Adrian Chiles' Panorama episode on e-bikes is poorly researched scaremongering that isn't worthy of your attention

It has happened, the day we as cyclists dreaded. If the otherwise affable and inoffensive Adrian Chiles isn't on side, what hope is there?

road.cc

 

[lenny]

E-bikes have become the whipping boy of UK roads | ETA

e-bikes

www.eta.co.uk

 

[guerney]

Context 250w limit being rated power, not actual power:

That's because they don't prepare and do research for their programs, but how would they know what questions to ask and what research to do, when most of the guys on this forum can't even get it right after having it explained to them many times?

Who will rid us of these troublesome researchers? I've dispatched an angry raven to The King.

"Any bike that travels faster than the limit and has more than a 250 watt output is classed as a motor vehicle and is subject to the Road Traffic Act."

E-bike hits pedestrian in Ryde High Street hit and run

CCTV footage shows the woman being knocked to the floor by two men riding an e-bike.

www.bbc.co.uk

"If you're looking for an e-bike which is treated as a regular bike as far as the rules are concerned, then it must meet the government's 'electrically assisted pedal cycle' (EAPC) requirements.
This means the power output of its motor is capped at 250 watts, and the motor isn't capable of propelling the bike any faster than 15.5mph (25kph)."

E-bikes: What is the law and is there an age limit?

Electric bikes are increasingly popular - but users must obey strict safety rules to ride them legally.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Woosh]

"Any bike that travels faster than the limit and has more than a 250 watt output is classed as a motor vehicle and is subject to the Road Traffic Act."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65855198

The word AND in the line is important. If you don't derestrict your bike, there is nothing to fear.

 

[guerney]

That is actually a very sensible idea on paper in town, but for example most of central London is now 20mph but with little segregation anywhere that I've seen?

So because the speeds are lower congestion just builds up even more so you got bikes/ebikes/mopeds/scooters etc. all weaving more and darting up alleyways to get through jams. Look at Euston Rd, used to be 10mins to get cab from Euston station to Edgeware Rd, now it's 20+mins in just few yrs. It can only get worse.

Seperate the traffic in to cars/bikes/people. Then we can all at our own pace get where we need to be safely.

That tightly compressed scrum squeezing through available aperture between buildings is going to be an increasingly familair feature, as car ownership and use of all types becomes ever more expensive, forcing people onto ebikes. The government of any day will never buy all roadside property to knock down in order to widen roads and add segregated lanes for pedestrians, escooters, bikes, acoustic bikes, ebikes, and cars, but such massive spending on infastructure would boost the economarrgghh! if they did. Then there's the cost of ziplines every 100 yards for pedestrians to cross such wide roads safely.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Nothing is corrupt. Both are allowed. There's nothing stopping the 20" wheeled bike having the same motor, etc as the MTB. Both can be rated at 250w. It's no different to say that you can drive a Ferrari with 400hp on the road legally, the same as you can a Toyota Aygo with 60hp. The 250w, just means legal.

Then surely the term should be 'Legal' not 250W because as you can see from this documentary there is massive confusion about ebikes and 250W. This so called professional well researched documentary states 250W maximum power so they don't understand the legislation either. The 250W means nothing in relation to how other electrical devices are certified. I've seen certification where a electrical motor is rated to its maximum wattage before it starts to overheat but I've never seen any other certification where you just state a random wattage number something can operate at and put that on the motor. Is there any other example of that? Certification is not normally random figures like this. So you have tiny hub motors, large hub motors, weak mid-drive motors, super powerful mid-drive motors and direct drive hub motors all certified as 250W. Even the pisspoor tiny hub motors that would struggle to get to 250W are called 250W like the Assist bike at Halfords which is really more of a 140-160W motor or at least that is all the controller can give it. It's rated 250W and sold as 250W despite not being 250W at all its being completely mis-sold as 250W and false advertising but that is the nuts certification we have. I guess you can take that motor and put it with a completely different controller and battery and test it at 250W but then certification is normally about the actual product supplied i.e. its components as configured.

Looking at Chinese trade houses that resell products from Chinese manufacturers i.e. they operate like importers to a degree but buy product in large quantities from factories to export themselves some of these will certify products for Europe to sell as 250W but the manufacturers themselves sell as lets say 750W and other Chinese trade houses just sell as 750W. It's the same product that the reseller/trade house is selling as 250W. It's a mad certification process.

Personally I'm never going to accept 250W as fair or honest certification. I was a compliance officer for many years and never saw anything like this before despite reading 100s of different BSI certification documents and the resultant test certificates based on that certification.

 

[lenny]

I was a compliance officer

 

[saneagle]

It is a bit nuts though, isn't it?

As long as a piece of paper or a sticker or a stamp from the manufacturer certifies it as 250W then we're all good so law has to accept that as proof?

Has this ever been been called or challenged in any court of law?

Does the court case come down well the motor is stamped at 250W from manufacturer so I'll have my bike back plus expenses please?

If I buy a 'stamp' machine for a few quid and remove the throttle (I use it mainly being lazy, the KT controller delivers enough power through PAS so really could get rid of it), what then? It's 'legal' so then they have to 'disprove' that, how they going to do that?

I'd prefer 500W. anarchy, just like we have right now..

It's only nuts if you support the idea that there should be a limit on the amount of power produced. If that was never the intention, then it seems pretty sane to me. Remember, this is a law, not an idea.

A throttle is neither legal, nor not legal. Like the power limit, people get everything wrong about them, and because they don'tread the rules, they think it's muddy and confusing. The problem is, like with the power, they have pre-conceptions of what the rules might be, and they have difficulty letting go of those paradigms. The only rule is that your bike is not allowed to propel itself above 4mph without pedalling. As long as you're pedalling, you can use whatever device you want to control power or speed.

If you have a throttle with a KT controller, you can make it completely legal with the settings of P4 and C4 (P4 =2, C4=2, IIRC but check). That gives 4mph max when not pedalling and 15.5 mph with max power when pedaling, assuming you set your global speed limit to 15.5 mph. That's the best way to use a throttle with a KT controller.

Regarding the "can I have my bike back please" the answer is yes. Exactly that situation arose in London, when the police seized a guy's fleet of ebikes after they used a device to measure current from the battery and calculated that the power was a lot above 250w. I wrote a letter explaining the law for the guy's lawyer, which he presented to the police. They immediately returned the bikes with a letter of apology. I guess he was able to get compensation for his losses too, but I didn't get involved in that. I detailed the letter in another thread somewhere, which you can use if it ever happens to you.

It only works if your motor is indeed rated at 250w. If you make your own markings, you run the risk of being charged with fraud or something like that, which can have serious penalties. It would probably be better not to have any markings, though the law also requires you to have them, so you could fall foul of that, but I never heard of a case. without markings, it's probably going to be a case of guilty unless you can prove your innocence.

 

[saneagle]

Who will rid us of these troublesome researchers? I've dispatched an angry raven to The King.

"Any bike that travels faster than the limit and has more than a 250 watt output is classed as a motor vehicle and is subject to the Road Traffic Act."

E-bike hits pedestrian in Ryde High Street hit and run

CCTV footage shows the woman being knocked to the floor by two men riding an e-bike.

www.bbc.co.uk

"If you're looking for an e-bike which is treated as a regular bike as far as the rules are concerned, then it must meet the government's 'electrically assisted pedal cycle' (EAPC) requirements.
This means the power output of its motor is capped at 250 watts, and the motor isn't capable of propelling the bike any faster than 15.5mph (25kph)."

E-bikes: What is the law and is there an age limit?

Electric bikes are increasingly popular - but users must obey strict safety rules to ride them legally.

www.bbc.co.uk

I keep telling you not to read or watch anything from the BBC. Just about everything they say is wrong. That's not the law. It's just something that's been copied and pasted from some website that doesn't have a clue about these things - probably the government website.

You must have seen those words many times on this forum. Every time they're posted, we explain to you why they're wrong. Why do you keep reproducing them? All it does is cause confusion. Is that your goal?