Stupidity of other road users

[flecc]

One point about women drivers. When a women has a crash I imagine she is most likely to hit a car driven be a man, so many more of them on the road and all that, so does that add to the male drivers accident tally also?

It's an interesting idea, but of course large numbers of accidents don't involve another vehicle, so that's knocked on the head. Drivers lose control and leave the road hitting buildings, run into roadworks and skips, mow down pedestrians, collide with bikes, hit crash barriers and/or roll their vehicles.

Here's two of the worst accidents in my area as examples.

Young woman and mother as passenger driving on 60 mph stretch, both look round at the same time to attend to the three children in the back, the young woman driver unwittingly pulling the steering wheel a bit. The car veered right head on into an oncoming car, that too driven by a woman who was killed.

Accident two. Woman comes out of house, gets into her powerful BMW automatic, presses the wrong pedal and shoots across the road up onto a pavement, killing a male pedestrian and dragging a woman pedestrian along a wall, tearing off one of her legs.

In addition, two more minor ones, first one I saw happen. Woman in Fiesta unaccountably drove straight into end of pavement railings, narrowly missing road workers at edge of road. Too hysterical to account for it. In the other, woman travelling at safe speed went straight on instead of taking a very gentle curve, ran up a lawn and slammed into a tree.

Of course there have been many with male drivers leaving the road, usually at speed, but note the lack of other drivers in the examples given.
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[Mandy]

By all means disagree with the facts of the recorded accidents that actually happen, and prefer your own local observations Mandy, but nothing of what you said above changes the accidents that actually happen. What your observations don't see is the fact that women on average drive around 40% less than mens annual mileage, but with an accidents total only about 15% less.

It was Bradford University which did a study (not facts), but I reported some facts on accident figures, not a study. I happen to think the knowledge of the combined police forces of Britain, the combined insurance companies and the government's own Road Research Laboratory is greater than yours about the accidents that happen, so I prefer to believe their recorded facts.

What I posted above supports the hormonal evidence. You see, I didn't say older women get worse as they age, I reported that they are 30% worse than men in their 70s, but that's because the men get safer as they age, due to the loss of the testosterone which drives their aggression in their younger years. It's the change in the men that gives rise to the widening gap, the women staying more consistent with age.

I repeat the accident rates which speak for themselves:

"The average rate for all age groups for men is 106, for women 125 per 100 million km."
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Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree then but no problem.
However I don't know where you get all your facts from Flecc but from what I have researched on the net they do not agree with yours.
You have also quoted three particular accidents caused by women in your area which is fair enough but statistically there are more accidents caused by men involving death or serious injury (or boys ) which is fact. If I were to quote the accidents caused by men in my area it may fill up the forum even more than my post does
Also the government lobbied against female drivers getting cheaper car insurance and the insurance companies won and cheaper car insurance remains for women drivers. Why is that then?

Womens car insurance - Only Insurance.com

Also: Quote: "The average rate for all age groups for men is 106, for women 125 per 100 million km." ?????

How on earth does anyone know how many miles each and every one of us, men and women really drive in a vehicle on a daily or yearly basis to settle upon that exact ratio of accidents per miles travelled for each sex? it's all statiistics really unless Big Brother is watching us

Quote: "It's the old lies, damn lies and statistics thing again, taking an unqualified fact and presenting it as an absolute, a favourite bit of political trickery.

I couldn't have put it better myself, lol

 

[flecc]

You are still misunderstanding Mandy.

You are quite right that men have more accidents, and that some companies give women lower premiums.

But as I've already made clear, it's because women do around 60% of mens mileage on average, and the insurance companie know that and state it. Cars that are parked don't get involved in accidents, so they don't cost the insurance companies a much.

Since you seem to prefer your observations to statistics, please do the observing and what do you see? I'll tell you.

The people doing short journeys running kids to school, going to supermarkets, libraries, local functions, visiting local friends etc are predominately women.

The people who cover very high mileages as reps hurtling along motorways, driving delivery vans and lorries, taxis and coaches, doing very long commutes and driving across country to business meetings etc are predominately men. That's why they have more accidents, they are driving very much more.

But as I pointed out above, when the two are adjusted for equal mileage, women have a higher accident rate by the amounts I've mentioned above.

To not agree these easily observed facts and understand them is in my view perverse.
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[Mandy]

You are still misunderstanding Mandy.

You are quite right that men have more accidents, and that some companies give women lower premiums.

But as I've already made clear, it's because women do around 60% of mens mileage on average, and the insurance companie know that and state it. Cars that are parked don't get involved in accidents, so they don't cost the insurance companies a much.

Since you seem to prefer your observations to statistics, please do the observing and what do you see? I'll tell you.

The people doing short journeys running kids to school, going to supermarkets, libraries, local functions, visiting local friends etc are predominately women.

The people who cover very high mileages as reps hurtling along motorways, driving delivery vans and lorries, taxis and coaches, doing very long commutes and driving across country to business meetings etc are predominately men. That's why they have more accidents, they are driving very much more.

But as I pointed out above, when the two are adjusted for equal mileage, women have a higher accident rate by the amounts I've mentioned above.

To not agree these easily observed facts and understand them is in my view perverse.
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I haven't misunderstood Flecc but the net screams out that women drivers are safer due to the studies done on the aforementioned hormone's etc.

Just because men drive longer distances and yes I agree this is a fact due to the work they may do. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that if the boot, or high heeled stiletto shoe were on the other foot so to speak that womens accidents would increase and mens decrease.

Men, certainly younger men drive more recklessly than women and that is a well known fact also as we all know, lol

I work in a very large office enviroment that is predominantly made up of youngsters both guys and girls. They are all on good money as there jobs involve commision and there seems to be an equal amount of each male and female owned very nice cars in the car park.
Well in my 3 1/2 year experience with the company it is the lads that come off the worst and always pranging their pride and joys even though there is no travelling distance to speak of between each gender.
The guys seem to get off on it and revel in a prang to there car with their mates, whereas on the odd occasion when a girl prangs her car it is tears and disbelief, lol.

Also in my 18 years or so of riding motor scooters most of my near collisions involved male drivers not female. My careful and tactical driving helped me to avoid colliding with them so I speak from experience in my area anyway

Regards and a good topic of conversation and views anyway

 

[flecc]

the net screams out that women drivers are safer due to the studies done on the aforementioned hormone's etc.

But they are studies, not the facts of what actually happens but conclusions from the studies. They are just studies of the effects of the hormonal differences.

Just because men drive longer distances and yes I agree this is a fact due to the work they may do. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that if the boot, or high heeled stiletto shoe were on the other foot so to speak that womens accidents would increase and mens decrease.

I quite agree. If the circumstances were to be reversed the outcomes could equally reverse or not be proportional. I was only speaking of what is, not what could be. If womens mileages rise further we could get an answer, though I suspect the resistance to role model changes will mean not much change from now. It's clear that most men just won't subscribe to the "new man" role as you've shown with their attitudes, so the gender roles and their effect on lifestyles will tend to be more static now.
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[john]

The statistics seem to indicate that women drivers have more accidents per mile but men suffer more fatalities per mile.

 

[Grandad]

Mandy, what is the logic behind this womans thinking?

I am travelling up a moderate slope on my left on a cycle track wide enough for two bikes to pass. Coming fast down the track towards me are a man and a woman in their forties riding in tandem on their left, the woman at the rear.

Suddenly the woman swings out to her right coming alongside the man and shouts at me "I am riding continental today". As there is a hedge on my left I couldn't get out of her way so I stopped and swung my front wheel to the left to deflect her if she hit me. At the last moment she swings back behind the man, clipping his mudguard. The two of them then carry on at speed he-hawing like donkeys in that horrible home counties accent that some people affect.

Regarding the use of bells. I do use mine, I give a distant ring, then another as I get closer. As I pass I smile and say "just letting you know I was coming". I usually get a thank you from them.
The silent aggresive lycra idiots get up my nose. They seem to pride themselves on startling people.

 

[flecc]

The statistics seem to indicate that women drivers have more accidents per mile but men suffer more fatalities per mile.

That sounds very likely John, men traditionally driving more aggressively and faster in their younger years, so more serious outcomes.

Things are changing though, if my London area is anything to go by. The careful and cautious woman driver is gradually being replaced by a far more assertive and aggressive model, and it's now just as likely to be a woman at the wheel when I suffer an aggressive driver. I'm guessing that's due to the social changes taking place with women increasingly adopting traditional male roles in the workplace etc, so London and the Home Counties is probably not representative of the country as a whole as yet.

P.S. Just seen Grandad's post, and that's exactly the sort of silly provocative aggression that I'm talking about.
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[Mandy]

Mandy, what is the logic behind this womans thinking?

I am travelling up a moderate slope on my left on a cycle track wide enough for two bikes to pass. Coming fast down the track towards me are a man and a woman in their forties riding in tandem on their left, the woman at the rear.

Suddenly the woman swings out to her right coming alongside the man and shouts at me "I am riding continental today". As there is a hedge on my left I couldn't get out of her way so I stopped and swung my front wheel to the left to deflect her if she hit me. At the last moment she swings back behind the man, clipping his mudguard. The two of them then carry on at speed he-hawing like donkeys in that horrible home counties accent that some people affect.

Regarding the use of bells. I do use mine, I give a distant ring, then another as I get closer. As I pass I smile and say "just letting you know I was coming". I usually get a thank you from them.
The silent aggresive lycra idiots get up my nose. They seem to pride themselves on startling people.

Hi Grandad

There is no logic behind that woman's thinking at all
She was obviously a stupid, inconsiderate, reckless individual who had no thought for anyone else using the cycle path. Well what go's around comes around and I hope she fell off somewhere down the path if she had tried that with someone else

I do not disagree there are some individual female bike riders and drivers out there that act in that same sort of needless and idiotic fashion as there are male.

I also think it's a shame that the human species is lumped into two categories: Male and Female regarding driving etc. After all each and every one of us is an individual in their own right, some careful and some not, some intelligent and some not, some thoughtless and some not regardless of age or gender and that is something that gets my goat when it is quoted: women this and men that in surveys and studies blah blah blah.

However, I will jump to the defence of the female species if a topic come's up because I feel that we are all individuals and the female is often targetted by the male species

Regards

 

[Mandy]

It's clear that most men just won't subscribe to the "new man" role as you've shown with their attitudes, so the gender roles and their effect on lifestyles will tend to be more static now.
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I'm not even sure what the "New Man" is supposed to represent Flecc

However, I guess more and more families nowadays require both parents to work which results in mum and dad sharing chores, cooking etc. Also there are more single parent dads out there which would not have been a choice in the past so I think it has been more forced than chosen for the poor old dad

I don't feel the "New Man" would apply to driving though Flecc

Regards

 

[flecc]

I don't feel the "New Man" would apply to driving though Flecc

Regards

It's what I said Mandy, men sticking to their traditional roles will continue to be the more likely to be the high mileage drivers.

While I agree with your saying that we are all individuals whether men or women, your attitude puzzles me. All your argument leads to your saying that there is no difference between the two genders, and frankly that's nonsense.

All I've said in this thread is that there is a difference and that there are consequences from that. The difference I mentioned on speed and distance judgement is widely accepted and documented by both genders and there are plenty of references around. If just had a quick look and extracted this paragraph from an accidents study:



As a cyclist I often suffer that kind of female misjudgement, one immediately following a previous post I'd made here which caused me to wish you could have seen it. I'm not at risk from males travelling at speed on motorways of course.
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[Mandy]

It's what I said Mandy, men sticking to their traditional roles will continue to be the more likely to be the high mileage drivers.

While I agree with your saying that we are all individuals whether men or women, your attitude puzzles me. All your argument leads to your saying that there is no difference between the two genders, and frankly that's nonsense.

All I've said in this thread is that there is a difference and that there are consequences from that. The difference I mentioned on speed and distance judgement is widely accepted and documented by both genders and there are plenty of references around. If just had a quick look and extracted this paragraph from an accidents study:

View attachment 389

As a cyclist I often suffer that kind of female misjudgement, one immediately following a previous post I'd made here which caused me to wish you could have seen it. I'm not at risk from males travelling at speed on motorways of course.
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I am not convinced that that is what is mean't by "New Man" though Flecc, he still may go home and do the washing up

Of course I know there is a difference between the two genders, I did do Human Biology at school you know

What I am sick and tired of however (In general opinions) is that women drivers are tarred with the same brush as are men drivers. So what I do not agree with is the "Woman Drivers" thing, as in the plural because it makes all women drivers out to be the same which they are not, as men are not all aggressive drivers even when young. There are good and bad in both genders which is the point I was making.

So when you said in a previous post about the part in a woman's brain, or something along those line's anyway, it was basically tarring women driver's with the same brush to my mind if you see what I mean

I have been a passenger with many a male and female driver and could not have lumped them into two groups from my experiences.
Regards

 

[aaannndddyyy]

I agree with Flecc on this one, women having more fender benders, in my 40+ years of driving and riding 7 out of 10 collisions or near misses on the roads mainly in towns and cities have involved women drivers, pulling out at junction without looking or at least not seeing oncoming traffic, misjudging distances or plain ignoring me because I am on a bike and there in a 4 by 4.
In my opinion women would be a lot better at driving if they had a man sitting beside them .

 

[john]

What I am sick and tired of however (In general opinions) is that women drivers are tarred with the same brush as are men drivers. So what I do not agree with is the "Woman Drivers" thing, as in the plural because it makes all women drivers out to be the same which they are not, as men are not all aggressive drivers even when young. There are good and bad in both genders which is the point I was making.

This is a tricky subject and it will be difficult for everyone to come to agreement. However, there is a difference between making a statement about general tendencies leading to statistical differences (between men and women) and saying that it applies to everyone.

I don't have a problem with the statement that men generally take greater risks than women and that this has the potential for more serious accidents. On the contrary, I find it useful information and try to adjust my driving/riding style to not give in to that temptation to take unnecessary risks.

 

[flecc]

Thank you John, average differences indeed. In line with that, I did say right at the outset that this was about differences and not about one being better than another.

Therefore I don't understand the line Mandy takes about women being targeted in some way. She has said these:

"what I do not agree with is the "Woman Drivers" thing, as in the plural because it makes all women drivers out to be the same"

But in earlier posts has said this:

"Men, certainly younger men drive more recklessly than women"

and this:

"Male drivers, particularly young male drivers can be a danger on the road, whereas a young female driver does not tend to drive in such an aggressive manner."

So it seems it's ok for Mandy to lump groups together, male as worse and female as better, but not for me to do the reverse in a very restricted and carefully qualified way.

That says it all and I don't think I need to post further in this thread.
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[Mandy]

Thank you John, average differences indeed. In line with that, I did say right at the outset that this was about differences and not about one being better than another.

Therefore I don't understand the line Mandy takes about women being targeted in some way. She has said these:

"what I do not agree with is the "Woman Drivers" thing, as in the plural because it makes all women drivers out to be the same"

But in earlier posts has said this:

"Men, certainly younger men drive more recklessly than women"

and this:

"Male drivers, particularly young male drivers can be a danger on the road, whereas a young female driver does not tend to drive in such an aggressive manner."

So it seems it's ok for Mandy to lump groups together, male as worse and female as better, but not for me to do the reverse in a very restricted and carefully qualified way.

That says it all and I don't think I need to post further in this thread.
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This is the part of your very first mention Flecc on the subject of women drivers that I was referring to: women being tarred with the same brush:

I think this is certainly not a careful, restricted or qualified manner and this is why I first posted and made the remarks you have posted above. However I also posted in my very first post that everyone is an individual did I not
You have just pasted one liners from my more detailed posts which is not a true representation of the posts in their entirety

[QUOTE=flecc And here's another uncomfortable fact, despite the greater care they take, women drivers are NOT safer, they are less safe. The government safe driving propaganda has only ever stated that women have less accidents, while conveniently ignoring the fact that women drive far lower mileages on average..[/QUOTE)

An uncomfortable fact you state, however you are not stating one is better than the other?

I rest my case

 

[Mandy]

In my opinion women would be a lot better at driving if they had a man sitting beside them .

Oh dear, here's another that lumps women drivers into one category.

Well "New Man" would be at home looking after the kids and doing the washing up.

and "Old Man" well he would be down the pub or at the bookies

So it isn't likely that a man would be sitting beside her, unless it's the other man of course

 

[Rab C Nesbitt]

Suddenly the woman swings out to her right coming alongside the man and shouts at me "I am riding continental today". As there is a hedge on my left I couldn't get out of her way so I stopped and swung my front wheel to the left to deflect her if she hit me. At the last moment she swings back behind the man, clipping his mudguard. The two of them then carry on at speed he-hawing like donkeys in that horrible home counties accent that some people affect.

Regarding the use of bells. I do use mine, I give a distant ring, then another as I get closer. As I pass I smile and say "just letting you know I was coming". I usually get a thank you from them.
The silent aggresive lycra idiots get up my nose. They seem to pride themselves on startling people.

Grandad
I've had a couple of similar run-ins like this - a sort of poor man's "chicken" - ah, the things that happen when you haven't got a baseball bat handy . . .

Agreed about not startling pedestrians - best to slow up and verbals definitely help. I favour the "Watch yer back, Jimmy - old yin coming through" (Glasgow accent - not sure how that would translate elsewhere in the country) and I never have any grief - unlike the lycra Silent Menace. They've scared the hoohahs out of me a few times on the bike so it will be damn sight worse for pedestrians as they whoosh past. Do they have some sort of Klingon cloaking device that I don't know about? Because I never hear or see the buggers until it's too late - they don't do any of us any favours if we're trying to promote cycling in all its forms

Rab

 

[Haku]

Hi All

Mmmmmm, well obviously as a woman I do not agree with Flecc's comments on Women drivers

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As for women cyclists regarding accidents? Well I don't do so bad, unlike some unfortunate male riders on the forum, it must be my brains ability to "Multi Task"

A friend of mine, whenever she's complaining about people cutting her up or just being generally bad on the roads she always say it's a "women driver".

BTW, if women keep putting forward the notion they're so good at multitasking, how come they can't have sex when they've got a headache?

 

[Danny-K]

BTW, if women keep putting forward the notion they're so good at multitasking, how come they can't have sex when they've got a headache?

Ha ha! Tee hee! LOLoud, Haku!

Best jibe of the week!

I'm pinching that line, you stand-up comedian you!