Spot the difference...
- Thread starter Hackney Andy
- Start date
Hi Dave, of course the Union Flag will be on the three classic Wisper bikes, we are proud to be a British firm. We live in an age where nearly all products that have more than a few components will be made up of parts that come from all over the world. Like many British firms we believe that it is important that people understand the bikes were conceived and the manufacture is controlled by a British business.
When we decided to move production out of China, our first choice was to have the bikes built in the UK, we spent a lot of time exploring this option but we simply could not find anyone willing to take the job on. Having owned and run a light engineering factory based in London employing up to sixty people that had to close down due to Chinese imports I was also keen to open a UK based factory again. I had face to face meetings with Norman Baker to see if we could find some help to set up our own factory but nothing was available. You will remember me saying Dave that if you ever do manage to set up in the UK I would be more than interested in working with you.
We would love to use 100% British parts and would be the first to become involved with any group who would like to set up a UK based electric bike factory, but these options are simply not available to us at the moment. In the mean time we have decided to do the next best thing and move into Europe, buying as many European parts as possible. All in an effort to reduce the carbon footprint of our bikes and provide our customers with the best product we can for the budgets we need to work with to keep Wisper a viable business.
Am I proud to be British and that Wisper is a British based business paying British taxes? You bet I am!
Best regards
David
When we decided to move production out of China, our first choice was to have the bikes built in the UK, we spent a lot of time exploring this option but we simply could not find anyone willing to take the job on. Having owned and run a light engineering factory based in London employing up to sixty people that had to close down due to Chinese imports I was also keen to open a UK based factory again. I had face to face meetings with Norman Baker to see if we could find some help to set up our own factory but nothing was available. You will remember me saying Dave that if you ever do manage to set up in the UK I would be more than interested in working with you.
We would love to use 100% British parts and would be the first to become involved with any group who would like to set up a UK based electric bike factory, but these options are simply not available to us at the moment. In the mean time we have decided to do the next best thing and move into Europe, buying as many European parts as possible. All in an effort to reduce the carbon footprint of our bikes and provide our customers with the best product we can for the budgets we need to work with to keep Wisper a viable business.
Am I proud to be British and that Wisper is a British based business paying British taxes? You bet I am!
Best regards
David
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Hi Dave, of course the Union Flag will be on the three classic Wisper bikes, we are proud to be a British firm. We live in an age where nearly all products that have more than a few components will be made up of parts that come from all over the world. Like many British firms we believe that it is important that people understand the bikes were conceived and the manufacture is controlled by a British business.
When we decided to move production out of China, our first choice was to have the bikes built in the UK, we spent a lot of time exploring this option but we simply could not find anyone willing to take the job on. Having owned and run a light engineering factory based in London employing up to sixty people that had to close down due to Chinese imports I was also keen to open a UK based factory again. I had face to face meetings with Norman Baker to see if we could find some help to set up our own factory but nothing was available. You will remember me saying Dave that if you ever do manage to set up in the UK I would be more than interested in working with you.
We would love to use 100% British parts and would be the first to become involved with any group who would like to set up a UK based electric bike factory, but these options are simply not available to us at the moment. In the mean time we have decided to do the next best thing and move into Europe, buying as many European parts as possible. All in an effort to reduce the carbon footprint of our bikes and provide our customers with the best product we can for the budgets we need to work with to keep Wisper a viable business.
Am I proud to be British and that Wisper is a British based business paying British taxes? You bet I am!
Best regards
David
With all due respect David , Im afraid that argument doesnt wash with me.
I am sure John, Dave, Bob, Hatti etc are all proud to be British companies and also pay their taxes......but they seemingly have managed to resist the temptation to put the Union Jack on their products knowing that they are not british produced products.....they just spec them, import them and sell them....just like you do.
As I said before, if they were assembled in the UK it might be different......but they arent.
You can prevaricate as much as you like, but personally I just see this as a misleading attempt to try to hoodwink or persuade the general public, who obviously know no different, into thinking that they are buying a British made bike.
You are trying to take a position in the market that you cannot justify.
In my opinion it is wrong and unethical.
Lynda
Perhaps the TV Manufacturers provide a clue . Toshiba have` Assembled in Poland ` on the plate at the back and Panasonic have `Assembled in the Czech Republic` . I made a point of buying a Sony TV when they started production in Bridgend and found that the 22in colour sets were made in Japan , it only lasted 6 years .I did the same when Panasonic started in Cardiff and that was made there and lasted over 20 years . A large local Discount Store` Hypervalue` imported all their stuff from China and Korea and always had the Union Flag on their plastic bags . I suppose the bags were made here .
It is very difficult to find anything made in one Country these days .
It is very difficult to find anything made in one Country these days .
I think for a long time the Union Flag has just been a cloth pattern for the casual clothing worn by a certain class of English men.T
I just always thought that the Union Jack signified the 'country of origin'
Lynda
while taking on board the spread of opinion, I dont quite get the chagrin. I see nothing wrong as Wisper are a UK company exporting bikes worldwide....
Wisper | Electric Bikes | International dealers
Wisper | Electric Bikes | International dealers
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Sorry David,that just won't wash with me. You have a German assembled bike with Chinese components.
On that basis Cyclezee,Woosh,Cyclamatic,Kudos etc can all have union jack flags on their bikes,its deceiptful and you know it,standing in front of that 3 metre tall backdrop at the cycle show with the giant union jack is just ramming it home.
In fact I would say that all us direct importers from China have more right to the union jack than Wisper does,at least all the value added is in the UK,not dispersing some of it into Germany.
What really takes the biscuit is to put 'Made in Germany' alongside the union jack flag,I am sorry I can't get my head round that.
Actually I don't know any other product that is assembled in mainland Europe from Chinese components that has a union jack flag,perhaps other pedelec members can advise?
As far as paying taxes in the UK,I have just paid Rally Design's corporation tax bill,which would keep a small hospital going,on that basis I should spray the whole frame in union jack colours not just a sticker.
I notice you avoided answering my question as to whether the bikes intended for German sale will also have the union jack sticker? In France and Germany they are very nationalistic and not exactly pro British at the moment!
My various companies have products made in all locations in the world,if asked I give an honest answer as to the country of origin. In fact at the moment I am bringing a lot of production back to the UK because the chinese advantage is being reduced,anything we make in Europe we put the EEC logo upon.
In a twist to this story some while ago an English shock absorber manufacturer put a German sounding name on his product because Bilstein(German)were conceived as the best manufacturers and he wished to be associated with the perceived quality from that country,trading standards jumped all over him and he had to rename his product.
You have gone to Germany to achieve quality in assembly,fair enough. Surely 'Made in Germany' is now a strong marketing tool,every car I have bought over the last 20 years has been German,I don't think us Brits have strong nationalistic tendencies but we do expect fair play and honesty from our suppliers!
Dave
Kudoscycles
On that basis Cyclezee,Woosh,Cyclamatic,Kudos etc can all have union jack flags on their bikes,its deceiptful and you know it,standing in front of that 3 metre tall backdrop at the cycle show with the giant union jack is just ramming it home.
In fact I would say that all us direct importers from China have more right to the union jack than Wisper does,at least all the value added is in the UK,not dispersing some of it into Germany.
What really takes the biscuit is to put 'Made in Germany' alongside the union jack flag,I am sorry I can't get my head round that.
Actually I don't know any other product that is assembled in mainland Europe from Chinese components that has a union jack flag,perhaps other pedelec members can advise?
As far as paying taxes in the UK,I have just paid Rally Design's corporation tax bill,which would keep a small hospital going,on that basis I should spray the whole frame in union jack colours not just a sticker.
I notice you avoided answering my question as to whether the bikes intended for German sale will also have the union jack sticker? In France and Germany they are very nationalistic and not exactly pro British at the moment!
My various companies have products made in all locations in the world,if asked I give an honest answer as to the country of origin. In fact at the moment I am bringing a lot of production back to the UK because the chinese advantage is being reduced,anything we make in Europe we put the EEC logo upon.
In a twist to this story some while ago an English shock absorber manufacturer put a German sounding name on his product because Bilstein(German)were conceived as the best manufacturers and he wished to be associated with the perceived quality from that country,trading standards jumped all over him and he had to rename his product.
You have gone to Germany to achieve quality in assembly,fair enough. Surely 'Made in Germany' is now a strong marketing tool,every car I have bought over the last 20 years has been German,I don't think us Brits have strong nationalistic tendencies but we do expect fair play and honesty from our suppliers!
Dave
Kudoscycles
It may not be illegal to sell foreign brands sporting the union jack.
I wonder if existing trading standards legislation can be used at least to make sure that the country of manufacture should be identified as clearly as the fake British ID?
Or maybe a change in the law is required.
I wonder if existing trading standards legislation can be used at least to make sure that the country of manufacture should be identified as clearly as the fake British ID?
Or maybe a change in the law is required.
Don't all concerned think this discussion has got too serious?
English football teams are often made up of majority foreign players, but still remain known as English.
Other countries teams often have British players and managers.
The England football manager has mostly been foreign in recent years.
Japanese cars are often made in the USA, Britain and Hungary; German cars often made in the USA, Czechoslovakia and Poland; Italian cars often made in Poland and Hungary etc.
One third of all our capital city's population were not born in Britain.
And the number of other examples is almost infinite.
The world has been globalised and nationalism has little meaning any more, but many still like to display their national flag is association with themselves or their products to show they retain a national pride. It's harmless and nobody is misled by that.
.
English football teams are often made up of majority foreign players, but still remain known as English.
Other countries teams often have British players and managers.
The England football manager has mostly been foreign in recent years.
Japanese cars are often made in the USA, Britain and Hungary; German cars often made in the USA, Czechoslovakia and Poland; Italian cars often made in Poland and Hungary etc.
One third of all our capital city's population were not born in Britain.
And the number of other examples is almost infinite.
The world has been globalised and nationalism has little meaning any more, but many still like to display their national flag is association with themselves or their products to show they retain a national pride. It's harmless and nobody is misled by that.
.
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Putting a Union Jack on a manufactured product suggests it is made in the UK.
Customers are being misled by Wisper.
When I began looking for an ebike a few months ago, I saw a Wisper and thought it was UK made, which may have had some impact on my buying decision.
A little research revealed the truth, which didn't rule out Wisper, but it meant I could view them in the same way as other brands.
It did put me off a little, I thought if Wisper attempt to deceive me with the flag, how else will they try to deceive me?
Customers are being misled by Wisper.
When I began looking for an ebike a few months ago, I saw a Wisper and thought it was UK made, which may have had some impact on my buying decision.
A little research revealed the truth, which didn't rule out Wisper, but it meant I could view them in the same way as other brands.
It did put me off a little, I thought if Wisper attempt to deceive me with the flag, how else will they try to deceive me?
I think the general public are well aware of global trade and manufacturing complexities and how this has hidden the country of origin from the product we buy.
If the input of design and financial backing of any product is significantly British, and the output of tax is significantly UK bound then the UJ seems to me appropriately placed upon that product.
Whether that UJ should influence purchasers is another issue.
I think we should credit the general public with a little more sense and understanding of the complexities and also allow them the choice of whether a UJ is important to them.
Personally I remember the "I'm Backing Britain" campaign of the sixties, the iron curtain of the seventies, the nuclear proliferation between nations and its diminishment, history of the Maoist starvations and more recent benefits of global participation and cooperation to both Western consumers and to poorer nations. I can clearly recognise the benefits of global trade and cooperation and its effect in reducing nationalism and crass, flag loyalties.
I only hope these cooperative trends move forward to help tackle the potential (for some) and evidenced (for many) effects of all this world activity as we face global warming, climate change, food, water and energy shortages that can be part mitigated by a much higher respect for localism: local production, local consumption.
Maybe one day we'll all share the same currency and plug into the same power supply. For the time being, here's my plug:
If I were to add a flag to Juicy Bikes it would have to be one representing the Peak District, for which our bikes are designed and proven.
If the input of design and financial backing of any product is significantly British, and the output of tax is significantly UK bound then the UJ seems to me appropriately placed upon that product.
Whether that UJ should influence purchasers is another issue.
I think we should credit the general public with a little more sense and understanding of the complexities and also allow them the choice of whether a UJ is important to them.
Personally I remember the "I'm Backing Britain" campaign of the sixties, the iron curtain of the seventies, the nuclear proliferation between nations and its diminishment, history of the Maoist starvations and more recent benefits of global participation and cooperation to both Western consumers and to poorer nations. I can clearly recognise the benefits of global trade and cooperation and its effect in reducing nationalism and crass, flag loyalties.
I only hope these cooperative trends move forward to help tackle the potential (for some) and evidenced (for many) effects of all this world activity as we face global warming, climate change, food, water and energy shortages that can be part mitigated by a much higher respect for localism: local production, local consumption.
Maybe one day we'll all share the same currency and plug into the same power supply. For the time being, here's my plug:
If I were to add a flag to Juicy Bikes it would have to be one representing the Peak District, for which our bikes are designed and proven.
Jazper,
I got quite involved in the law as regards country of origin,because sometimes an assembly has input from many different locations. The UK law is strange in that if a product has say'Made in Portugal' then the product has to come from Portugal but you are not under any obligation to state the country of origin on the product,so if a product comes from say China then you dont have to declare that fact,in the USA if 40% or more of the product is manufactured outside the USA then USA law requires to state the country of origin,as you say maybe a change in the law required.
In the case of Wisper nothing of those bikes is made in the UK but putting the union jack logo so prominently on the bike and trade stands would suggest to customers the bike is made in the UK-as this thread has gone on so long I will write to trading standards and ask whether a union jack logo is same as 'made in UK',in which case it would under UK law it would be illegal.
Will report back.
Why does this matter,because one day Kudos or another bike supplier may wish to assemble bikes in the UK,the existence of a German assembled bike with a union jack sticker would undermine the marketing efforts of a genuine UK assembled product.
Come on David get rid of those union jack stickers.
Dave
Kudoscycles
C
Cyclezee
Guest
You are quite correct Shem, but it doesn't function. This is all that you get when you click on it Trade Only and no one can post on it.
Personally, I don't see the point, traders can simply email, PM or even phone each other if they wish to communicate or conspire in private.
I think the forum should be as open as possible for people to say what they like as long as it is, not vulgar, abusive.
let's be clear, Union Jacks are placed on goods as part of a calculated act intended make the potential purchaser believe that he or she will be buying a British product. The assumption being that this will create a feel-good factor because the potential British customer will believe that they are supporting British industry, jobs and economy by purchasing the product which bears the flag. The union flag is nothing more than a lubricant cynically placed make the decision to buy a particular product easy when comparing it to its competitors.
I may be out of kilter with so called, "modern times" but if something isn't made here, then you can't legitimately stick a Union flag on it.
I may be out of kilter with so called, "modern times" but if something isn't made here, then you can't legitimately stick a Union flag on it.
The correct name for our national flag is the Union Flag. The jack so often mentioned refers to the jackstaff, which is short flagpole on the bow (forepeak) of a ship, and any flag flown in that location is know as a jack.
A flag flown elsewhere is not a jack.
Traditionally a ship of the Royal Navy carrying the Admiral of the Fleet flew the union flag in the forepeak and from that sailors correctly referred to that particular flag as the union jack. Landlubbers picked up on that and incorrectly started to apply it the to national flag elsewhere.
To re-emphasise, the correct names are either the Union Flag or the Flag of the Union.
A flag flown elsewhere is not a jack.
Traditionally a ship of the Royal Navy carrying the Admiral of the Fleet flew the union flag in the forepeak and from that sailors correctly referred to that particular flag as the union jack. Landlubbers picked up on that and incorrectly started to apply it the to national flag elsewhere.
To re-emphasise, the correct names are either the Union Flag or the Flag of the Union.
The whole point for me is that I believe it is deliberately misleading to the end consumer....
It has nothing to do with football players/clubs/managers etc....I am not in the market of potentially buying any of them...and nor are the majority of people.
This is a product that is on sale and I dont like being potentially misled into thinking something is British made when it isnt.
I, as a consumer, want to know, and with most products I buy, DO know the country of origin, I think that is my right as a consumer and then, armed with the facts, I am free to decide whether to buy or not.
And this is NOT a topic solely for 'traders' it is quite rightly being discussed here on a public forum and will hopefully make it clear to people exactly what they are buying.
I also wonder what the likes of Kalkoff etc will think of these Wisper bikes having Made in Germany stamped on their frames too ??
I know in business it is great to appeal to the widest market possible, but 'made in germany' and 'union jacks' is to my mind just clouding the issue and playing the general public for fools.
I prefer companies to be up front about what they are selling, Wisper have a generally good name and to my mind are cheapening that with these selling ploys trying to 'steal a march' unfairly on their competitors.
Lynda
It has nothing to do with football players/clubs/managers etc....I am not in the market of potentially buying any of them...and nor are the majority of people.
This is a product that is on sale and I dont like being potentially misled into thinking something is British made when it isnt.
I, as a consumer, want to know, and with most products I buy, DO know the country of origin, I think that is my right as a consumer and then, armed with the facts, I am free to decide whether to buy or not.
And this is NOT a topic solely for 'traders' it is quite rightly being discussed here on a public forum and will hopefully make it clear to people exactly what they are buying.
I also wonder what the likes of Kalkoff etc will think of these Wisper bikes having Made in Germany stamped on their frames too ??
I know in business it is great to appeal to the widest market possible, but 'made in germany' and 'union jacks' is to my mind just clouding the issue and playing the general public for fools.
I prefer companies to be up front about what they are selling, Wisper have a generally good name and to my mind are cheapening that with these selling ploys trying to 'steal a march' unfairly on their competitors.
Lynda
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