Spot the difference...

[Kudoscycles]

Don't all concerned think this discussion has got too serious?

English football teams are often made up of majority foreign players, but still remain known as English.

Other countries teams often have British players and managers.

The England football manager has mostly been foreign in recent years.

Japanese cars are often made in the USA, Britain and Hungary; German cars often made in the USA, Czechoslovakia and Poland; Italian cars often made in Poland and Hungary etc.

One third of all our capital city's population were not born in Britain.

And the number of other examples is almost infinite.

The world has been globalised and nationalism has little meaning any more, but many still like to display their national flag is association with themselves or their products to show they retain a national pride. It's harmless and nobody is misled by that.
.

Flecc,your argument is irrelevant. We all know that football teams are a mixture of all nationalities,the players names are a giveaway but there is no attempt to hide the country of origin.
The population in the UK is multi racial and the better for it but nobody tries to hide their country of origin. Your last words, I am surprised from you, quote 'its harmless and nobody is misled by that'-the local Wisper dealer near to me told me the bikes are made in New Zealand! the local Ultramotor (now Hero) told my wife that the bikes came from a company in the north of England,you shouldn't buy any of that cheap Taiwanese rubbish! and RobF's posting above this suggests that he was misled by the union jack stickers. At the cycle show last year I had several potential customers come up to me to say that they liked my bikes but wanted to buy British and were going to buy a British Wisper bike.
Lets let trading standards decide whether a union jack sticker means a British made product,the 'made in Germany' inscription just confuses the customer,I will report back as to trading standards decision.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[JuicyBike]

The correct name for our national flag is the Union Flag. The jack so often mentioned refers to the jackstaff, which is short flagpole on the bow (forepeak) of a ship, and any flag flown in that location is know as a jack.

A flag flown elsewhere is not a jack.

Traditionally a ship of the Royal Navy carrying the Admiral of the Fleet flew the union flag in the forepeak and from that sailors correctly referred to that particular flag as the union jack. Landlubbers picked up on that and incorrectly started to apply it the to national flag elsewhere.

To re-emphasise, the correct names are either the Union Flag or the Flag of the Union.

Well worth flagging, Flecc, but now I'm flagging too.... Apologies to all for my Jack knowledge!

 

[eddieo]

So its a marketing strategy big deal.......Are you that worried when out shopping on the high street blindly supporting wholsale tax evasion schemes, ripping us of blind, while supping your starbollocks skinny late or Pepsi.... I very much doubt it

 

[RobF]

The correct name for our national flag is the Union Flag. The jack so often mentioned refers to the jackstaff, which is short flagpole on the bow (forepeak) of a ship, and any flag flown in that location is know as a jack.

A flag flown elsewhere is not a jack.

Traditionally a ship of the Royal Navy carrying the Admiral of the Fleet flew the union flag in the forepeak and from that sailors correctly referred to that particular flag as the union jack. Landlubbers picked up on that and incorrectly started to apply it the to national flag elsewhere.

To re-emphasise, the correct names are either the Union Flag or the Flag of the Union.

It's a living language and times have moved on since the fastest way to get to Australia was on the Cutty Sark.

Union Jack has passed into the language as an alternative - and I think more popular - name for our Union Flag.

I could evidence this by quoting a nasty racist rhyme beloved of far right parties and Chelsea fans, but they are in enough trouble already.

 

[Cyclezee]

One third of all our capital city's population were not born in Britain.

.

That includes my daughter who lives in London, but was "Made in Germany", ..... with some British input

 

[funkylyn]

The correct name for our national flag is the Union Flag. The jack so often mentioned refers to the jackstaff, which is short flagpole on the bow (forepeak) of a ship, and any flag flown in that location is know as a jack.

A flag flown elsewhere is not a jack.

Traditionally a ship of the Royal Navy carrying the Admiral of the Fleet flew the union flag in the forepeak and from that sailors correctly referred to that particular flag as the union jack. Landlubbers picked up on that and incorrectly started to apply it the to national flag elsewhere.

To re-emphasise, the correct names are either the Union Flag or the Flag of the Union.

Yes flecc, ok, I dont care what it is supposed to be called, Im more concerned with how it is being used.

We all know what we mean by saying Union Jack....even if strictly speaking it should be called the Union Flag.

I still prefer to refer to it as the union jack as the majority of the general public know and understand what is meant by that and I prefer not to be TOO pedantic

Lynda

 

[Kudoscycles]

So its a marketing strategy big deal.......Are you that worried when out shopping on the high street blindly supporting wholsale tax evasion schemes, ripping us of blind, while supping your starbollocks skinny late or Pepsi.... I very much doubt it

Eddie,what the hell has tax evasion and skinny latte (i think thats what you meant by 'late')got to do with a union jack sticker on a german bike. If you were a manufacturer of genuine UK assembled bicycles you would be going mad,in your normal exuberant style,at Wisper to get rid of those stickers.
I suggest that anyone who is unhappy with this situation write to their local trading standards dept requesting advice as to whether a german assenbled bike with chinese components can legimately display a union jack sticker.
I am sure David Miall is reading this post and must be having second thoughts as to whether a union jack sticker on a bike to be sold in Germany and especially France may not be a good marketing idea,is it water based into the paint?
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[RobF]

We should send flecc to France where he can join the Academie francaise and its fight for language purity:

Académie française - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
'
Widespread use of 'le hamburger' and 'le flyover' are just two of the battles lost by the academie.

 

[eddieo]

Dave, please get of your soapbox...your like a dog with rat and its unbecoming.

Its a UK company exporting worldwide. instead of critising we should be celebrating the fact that Wisper upped the game, brought good BRITISH designed quality e bikes to the UK (unlike you). But this is just so typical of petty little Englanders always knocking success

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Brilliant thread! Thanks for all those who so far have been involved!

My thanks go to all those who support my stance and of course to those that don't, I appreciate and respect your comments and appreciate the platform for letting me put my case.

On our website and frame, we clearly say where the bikes are made.

Just to make sure there is no confusion, our bikes used to be made in China using mostly products from Chinese companies. Wisper bikes are now made in Germany using a mixture of products bought from businesses from Germany, Italy, China, Japan, Taiwan and other countries. We love our bikes and strive to make them as well as we possibly can. We have moved to Germany so we can offer better products to our many customers.

Wisper is a British company wholly owned by British people, based in Britain, we are proud be British and to continue to use the Union Flag in our logo!

I love this business, so much passion!

I trust you all have a superb weekend.

All the best

David

 

[funkylyn]

I have every sympathy with Kudos and any other bike importer justifiably getting annoyed when competitors are winning sales by what can only be described as deliberate deception.....or marketing ploys as some like to see it.

I have been a sole trader all my working life in various businesses and my overriding business ethics have always been that "Honesty is the best Policy" when dealing with the general public, because if not, it tends to have a nasty habit of coming back and biting you on the bum when you least expect it.

I think David Miall could well be thinking that right now,and if not, then maybe the lure of gaining more sales by unethical 'marketing ploys' over rides all else......I really dont know, but I am now wondering....

I am looking forward to hearing more from Dave re Trading Standards policy.

Lynda

 

[funkylyn]

Brilliant thread! Thanks for all those who so far have been involved!

My thanks go to all those who support my stance and of course to those that don't, I appreciate and respect your comments and appreciate the platform for letting me put my case.

On our website and frame, we clearly say where the bikes are made.

Just to make sure there is no confusion, our bikes used to be made in China using mostly products from Chinese companies. Wisper bikes are now made in Germany using a mixture of products bought from businesses from Germany, Italy, China, Japan, Taiwan and other countries. We love our bikes and strive to make them as well as we possibly can. We have moved to Germany so we can offer better products to our many customers.

Wisper is a British company wholly owned by British people, based in Britain, we are proud be British and to continue to use the Union Flag in our logo!

I love this business, so much passion!

I trust you all have a superb weekend.

All the best

David

Thanks David....a VERY illuminating reply......I needn't 'wonder' anymore apparently.......you have made your stance perfectly clear to everyone.

I am really looking forward to hearing Trading Standards position on this topic.

Lynda

 

[Kudoscycles]

Dave, please get of your soapbox...your like a dog with rat and its unbecoming.

Its a UK company exporting worldwide. instead of critising we should be celebrating the fact that Wisper upped the game, brought good BRITISH designed quality e bikes to the UK (unlike you). But this is just so typical of petty little Englanders always knocking success

Eddie,am I the 'petty little Englander'? Rally Design is the largest wholesaler of motorsport parts in the UK,we ship product all over the world and like it or not Kudos are rapidly growing into the biggest ebike seller in the UK,in number terms we may already be there.
I can see that David Miall is currently online reading this thread. Wisper has a good profile in the UK,the cache of 'made in Germany' is respected in the UK,but not necessarily reciprocated. As long as the costs of transport and german assembly does not adversely affect the competitiveness of Wisper,then Wisper does not need to resort to dishonest marketing using the union jack logo.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Again Dave, thanks for your input!

Raleigh bikes (made and owned by a German business) still use the Union Flag or did last year because they are proud of their British history. I understand that both German and French people still have confidence in businesses run by the British. Maybe I am wrong but as I have said many times I am proud Wisper is British and flies the flag.

All the best

David

 

[jazper53]

Country of origin markings
Generally speaking, there is no requirement in the law of the United Kingdom or the European Union for goods to bear marks indicating their origin, nor is there anything to prevent voluntary origin marking where traders wish to do so. However, where such marks are applied to goods, the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 (TDA) effectively requires these marks to be accurate. Subject to certain defences, this Act makes it a criminal offence for a person, in the course of business, to apply false or misleading trade descriptions to goods. The term “trade description” includes, amongst others, an indication, however given, of the “place of manufacture, production, processing or reconditioning” of the goods.

trading standards guidlines for TACKLING MISLEADING COUNTRY OF ORIGIN CLAIMS AND COUNTERFEIT GOODS

 

[funkylyn]

Seems like the Germans dont like seeing a Union jack on german assembled bikes after all, because, as far as I can see, Raleigh dont seem to be using it on their bikes any more.....

Lynda

 

[Kudoscycles]

Hi Again Dave, thanks for your input!

Raleigh bikes (made and owned by a German business) still use the Union Flag or did last year because they are proud of their British history. I understand that both German and French people still have confidence in businesses run by the British. Maybe I am wrong but as I have said many times I am proud Wisper is British and flies the flag.


From memory Raleigh Bikes used to make bikes in the UK,Wisper and Kudos never have,we have no history of UK bike manufacture. I do a lot of work with companies such as Caterham and Morgan,very classic UK sports car manufacturers,they bear the union jack logo and rightfully so.
My wife buys pork and lamb with a union jack logo and the meat is guaranteed 'reared in the UK,I think they are honest',can you imagine the outcry from british meat producers, if the pork was italian and the lamb new zealand, but the importer was a british company so that allowed him to put a union jack logo on the meat-no right thinking person would consider that honest.
I am proud to be a british company and do my bit for our UK exports,I have no problem with the union jack logo on say the companys letterhead but not when it is used on the product-if I did that at say the Autosports show,NEC I can assure you that those companies who are still 100% producing in the UK would be justifiably aggrieved.
Since making this posting Jasper53's posting crossed with mine,I think he succintly defines the legal position,you could be in difficulty,note the words 'an indication,however given'as to the source of origin.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Scimitar]

let's be clear, Union Jacks are placed on goods as part of a calculated act intended make the potential purchaser believe that he or she will be buying a British product. The assumption being that this will create a feel-good factor because the potential British customer will believe that they are supporting British industry, jobs and economy by purchasing the product which bears the flag. The union flag is nothing more than a lubricant cynically placed make the decision to buy a particular product easy when comparing it to its competitors.

I may be out of kilter with so called, "modern times" but if something isn't made here, then you can't legitimately stick a Union flag on it.

I agree with those points. If a product contains at least 70% of a total of hardware and assembly costs sourced in the UK, then it's British, in my eyes. Any less than that, it's not British.

 

[flecc]

It has nothing to do with football players/clubs/managers etc....I am not in the market of potentially buying any of them...and nor are the majority of people.

This is a product that is on sale

Yes it is to do with them, they too are consumer products* and they sell tickets for their "English" teams games.

* Consumer products are not just hardware, software is a consumer product for example, as is 20/20 cricket, the latter designed solely as a wide appeal consumer product.

I also wonder what the likes of Kalkoff etc will think of these Wisper bikes having Made in Germany stamped on their frames too ??

Both makes built from largely Chinese manufactured components, both using Japanese designed products in some of their models and both with German built frames and some other components. Can't see the difference. Kalkhoff is after all just a brand name of Derby Cycles with virtually the same bikes sold under the English Raleigh brand name. Isn't that pulling wool over consumer's eyes?

The fact remains that no-one is being fooled in the globalised world that we are all well used to. David is merely proud of his nationality as a citizen of the United Kingdom and also proud of the company that he has built from scratch here in Britain. The company is British and where theirs or any other companies products are made is irrelevant to anyone not still living in the past of the pre-globalised world.

 

[funkylyn]

Hi Again Dave, thanks for your input!

Raleigh bikes (made and owned by a German business) still use the Union Flag or did last year because they are proud of their British history. I understand that both German and French people still have confidence in businesses run by the British. Maybe I am wrong but as I have said many times I am proud Wisper is British and flies the flag.


From memory Raleigh Bikes used to make bikes in the UK,Wisper and Kudos never have,we have no history of UK bike manufacture. I do a lot of work with companies such as Caterham and Morgan,very classic UK sports car manufacturers,they bear the union jack logo and rightfully so.
My wife buys pork and lamb with a union jack logo and the meat is guaranteed 'reared in the UK,I think they are honest',can you imagine the outcry from british meat producers, if the pork was italian and the lamb new zealand, but the importer was a british company so that allowed him to put a union jack logo on the meat-no right thinking person would consider that honest.
I am proud to be a british company and do my bit for our UK exports,I have no problem with the union jack logo on say the companys letterhead but not when it is used on the product-if I did that at say the Autosports show,NEC I can assure you that those companies who are still 100% producing in the UK would be justifiably aggrieved.
Dave
Kudoscycles

I absolutely agree Dave, and with David feeling so pro british it would be nice...and also acceptable obviously, to have the flag logo on his stationary, also on his bikes IF they were being assembled in the UK.
Then he really could feel proud to be a British electric bike importer.

As an electric bike consumer I find his attitude astonishing and very condescending, for you and others being rival importers, it must be very annoying and frustrating.

In business its always better and fairer to be competing on a level playing field.

Maybe if your sales continue to rise you might be tempted to assemble in the UK ?

I can just picture you and your staff dressed in Union flags at exhibitions......bikes painted with union jack livery........tempting thought ?

Lynda