Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[matthewslack]

I was wondering how they synchronise all these different Generators?
"..Synchronous Grid.. Three Phase Alternating 50hz Frequency..synchronised so that voltage swings at almost the same time.." Wikipedia
So what happens when the wind blows too little, too much, doesn't blow at all, how does it keep synced?
https://weather.metoffice.gov.uk/maps-and-charts/wind-map#?model=ukmo-ukv&layer=wind-speed-and-direction ..
View attachment 61415
What happens when there is a peak demand and the wind Drops? "Oh sugar! Crank up the Gas, hydro, anything..Tell them to turn the wick up on the Neuwks".
Country needs power even when the wind doesn't blow, which means having Other generator types, and Paying for them All. Which multiplies the price. Don't know where you got your 7p/kWh. I'll have some of that please! Hehe
(Is there a price that includes All the Subsidies pls?
Av price in Ireland is 35.36c/kWh Inc vat)

Balancing fundamentals don't change that much, because the variations in demand have always had to be managed. The big change is that similarly scaled variations in supply also now need managing.

Pumped storage of GW scale able to come on line in seconds has been the mainstay of this in the past. The rush to battery farms also helps with rapid load variation, and is probably environmentally preferable to the generator parks that came before them.

The untapped flexibility resource is domestic customers: most of us care about nothing more than money, and for the right price would be more than willing to timeshift consumption. Supported by forecasting on short/medium/long timescales, there's scope for a major shift in our relationship with energy.

Smart meters to some extent failed because they did not give the customer the level of control that was promised.

 

[MikelBikel]

Storm Darragh: Hundreds of thousands of premises without power amid ‘extensive damage’ to electricity infrastructure

Weather Ireland: Bus, rail and ferry services disrupted as storm crosses Ireland

www.irishtimes.com

Selective Amnesia in abundance here?
How much wind juice did ye get when Darragh was blowing?

 

[flecc]

Australia's enbrace of solar energy is a good example of the way forward for us. Solar cell yield is improving fast with new material science advances. We are now reaching 60% efficiency in then labs. Eventually, we won't need to bolt panels to the roof but just wire the roof and windows into the grid and the EV. I have seen video of dodecahedron balls that are wired to capture solar energy. Think of turning your gravel drive into solar capture device.

Unrealisable here with our population policies. Almost a third of the households are single, often living in flats. Here they are often in tower blocks of 44 to 52 storeys, so they have no roof or drive to speak of and many of the flats face unfavourably away from any sunlight. Nor can they have EVs, since planning policy doesn't allow the provision of any parking in these developments.

Even as far back as 1960 a new low rise block of 24 family flats where I lived only had space and planning permission for 5 lock up garages and 2 visitor parking bays.

And where I live now my garage is one in a block of 50 with no electricity provision, so no chance of V-to-G. I was able to wangle my supply, but it's only a one off dodge with cannot be repeated.

It's a bit like automated self drive cars, all these excellent newer systems can only work if we bulldoze everything we've got now and rebuild to suit. But that, even if possible, is self defeating.
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[matthewslack]

...and the synchronisation issue is a non-issue. Devices have to be synchronised as they connect to the grid, but once connected to the grid, they automatically stay in sync. That's just how AC power works.

A generator is a generator because it is 'pushing' forward against the grid's AC waveform, increasing the frequency by a tiny bit as it contributes current. A consumer 'drags' back against it, consuming current and slowing the frequency down.

Understanding the complexity of why that works is way too much for a post from me, and most people don't have the maths ability to understand it anyway.

 

[MikelBikel]

Australia's enbrace of solar energy is a good example of the way forward for us. Solar cell yield is improving fast with new material science advances. We are now reaching 60% efficiency in then labs. Eventually, we won't need to bolt panels to the roof but just wire the roof and windows into the grid and the EV. I have seen video of dodecahedron balls that are wired to capture solar energy. Think of turning your gravel drive into solar capture device.

"Gravel Drive", I might go out right now and stick the multimeter probes in d drive and see what's ocurring. Uhh, zilch from d "Balls" around here! Haha Jetsons Syndrome again?

 

[flecc]

Understanding the complexity of why that works is way too much for a post from me, and most people don't have the maths ability to understand it anyway.

With the widespread trend towards local power generation. everything from solar to SMRs, perhaps we should have stuck to Edisons local DC systems!
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[flecc]

Meanwhile, in the real world, no-one's buying Eccentric Veehikules

"In 2024 to date, there has been 338,314 new fully electric cars sold, which is 18.7% market share of all new cars registered this year. More fully electric cars have now been sold this year than the whole of last year.

In 2023, the last full year, there were 314,684 electric cars sold, as compared to 267,203 in 2022; a growth of 18%. The proportion of new cars that are electric has grown from 6.6% in 2020, to 18.7% in 2024."

LINK
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[Ghost1951]

I was wondering how they synchronise all these different Generators?
"..Synchronous Grid.. Three Phase Alternating 50hz Frequency..synchronised so that voltage swings at almost the same time.." Wikipedia
So what happens when the wind blows too little, too much, doesn't blow at all, how does it keep synced?
https://weather.metoffice.gov.uk/maps-and-charts/wind-map#?model=ukmo-ukv&layer=wind-speed-and-direction ..
View attachment 61415
What happens when there is a peak demand and the wind Drops? "Oh sugar! Crank up the Gas, hydro, anything..Tell them to turn the wick up on the Neuwks".
Country needs power even when the wind doesn't blow, which means having Other generator types, and Paying for them All. Which multiplies the price. Don't know where you got your 7p/kWh. I'll have some of that please! Hehe
(Is there a price that includes All the Subsidies pls?
Av price in Ireland is 35.36c/kWh Inc vat)

1. Nuclear doesn't get whacked up. It runs at near peak output all the time. Large thermal power plant is damaged by heating up and cooling down. You don't risk your billions of pounds investment to thermal shock and cracking of steam pipes and the reactor body by whacking it up and down. It runs 24/7 whatever the demand.

2. Large scale wind power is not affected by momentary wind fluctuations. It is so widespread that localised wind fluctuation is irrelevant. It may be blowing hard here and dropping there, but the impact on the grid of such vagaries is minimal. The UK has installed capacity of over 30 Gigawatts of wind generation and is still building.

3. This is not the 1960s. The grid frequency is well controlled even though the UK has a large part of its power generation produced by wind farms off shore. HVDC transport of power is independent of grid frequency anyway and much of the offshore power arrives as HV DC. The DC system is beneficial for under sea power transport because AC under water treats the sea like a capacitor and loses a lot of energy in charging and discharging it as the polarity cycles at the grid frequency. HVDC is converted to AC by inverters at the shore connection.

In the last 24 hours the UK grid has produced 46% of its needs or and average of 16 Gigawatts of electric power from wind generation.

It works when the wind blows which in the UK scenario is most of the time.

Wind is cheap.

What's not to like?

The grid buys wind power at about 7 pence per kilowatt hour.

I don't understand why you knock it so much. We even sell wind generated power to you over the sea.

If your electricity is too expensive talk to your politicians. Mine is at least 4 euro cents a unit cheaper than yours. Maybe you depend too much on gas over there. I have no idea.

 

[Ghost1951]

Storm Darragh: Hundreds of thousands of premises without power amid ‘extensive damage’ to electricity infrastructure

Weather Ireland: Bus, rail and ferry services disrupted as storm crosses Ireland

www.irishtimes.com

Selective Amnesia in abundance here?
How much wind juice did ye get when Darragh was blowing?

You persistently over simplify and distort. The reason people had no power in some localities during the storm was because the power lines were wrecked by falling trees. It was nothing to do with turbines not working. From memory we were getting about 20 Gigawatts from wind all through that period.

I have seen small wind generators destroyed by high winds. It was because they were small on the cheap installations put up by local farmers and they were not properly managed and were allowed to go into an over speed situation. A very good friend of mine built one on his farm himself and he had a big switch to short circuit the generator so that the magnetic braking prevented it from doing anything but turn slowly in a high wind.

He sold his farm at aged 93 and went to live with his daughter and the stupid woman who bought the farm took out the control mechanism to turn his workshop into a horse tack room. First big wind that came the turbine tore itself to pieces by rotating at ridiculous speed. Blades went far and wide and the tower was smashed down.

Any idea that wind farm owners would let their systems destroy themselves is ridiculous. It is only bad operation which would allow that to happen and people who have invested billions in a wind farm are not going to let that happen.

 

[MikelBikel]

You should see the growth of solar panels and batteries in Australia. By this time next year, Australian homes would probably produce enough electricity for their own needs. A lot of EVs now have V2G capabilities. They store electricity produced by solar panels and returns it to the grid later. Storage battery capacity is set to double every year for the next 6 years.

So if the sun And wind are free why have electricity prices rocketed. No use for them if they cannot generate juice Economically!
Here's a cartoon to make the greenies feel better:

 

[matthewslack]

...and monitoring and control of the supply / demand balance is a thing of beauty and elegance!

The whole AC grid is designed to run at a constant frequency, but it doesn't. When supply exceeds demand, it slows down, and when supply exceeds demand, it speeds up. The state of balance can be seen simply by measuring the frequency! No need for complicated communications, the system tells it's own story.

As long as individual generators and loads are small compared to the total load, no fancy arrangements are needed to maintain a fairly close balance because adding or removing one generayor or load does not change the frequency by much.

There are limits on permitted frequency excursions, and an overriding requirement for the average frequency over some period to be precisely correct, which is why your mains power clock is always right.

 

[MikelBikel]

In the Real World

Wind farms to get paid for electricity they do not supply

Latest renewable energy supports will cut risks for generators to encourage lower prices

www.irishtimes.com

Wind costs more than you think due to massive federal subsidies

Consumers of wind power pay twice: first via their monthly electricity bill and a second time as taxpayers to finance billions of dollars in subsidies.

theconversation.com

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/why-wind-farms-are-getting-paid-millions-to-turn-off

Constraint payments: rewarding wind farms for switching off - Power Technology

So-called "onstraint payments" have reportedly totalled up to £650m over the last decade; we profile the payments and how they work.

www.power-technology.com

 

[Ghost1951]

Australia's enbrace of solar energy is a good example of the way forward for us. Solar cell yield is improving fast with new material science advances. We are now reaching 60% efficiency in then labs. Eventually, we won't need to bolt panels to the roof but just wire the roof and windows into the grid and the EV. I have seen video of dodecahedron balls that are wired to capture solar energy. Think of turning your gravel drive into solar capture device.

I think you are delusional if you think that solar in the UK is going to be anything more than a useful adjunct to wind and gas. Wind is great most of the time, but when it isn't, it REALLY isn't - you don't need a long memory to recall the long period in November when the supposed 30 Gigawatts of installed wind power was barely putting out one Gigawatt for a straight three weeks and not much more for a week after that. Sun is just hopeless at this time of year.Where I am we only have sun over the horizon for seven hours a day at this time of year and then it is as like as not hidden by massive clouds and a very low angle of elevation so the output is negligible. Australia is a massive desert with about 27 million people living around the edge of a continent of desert which takes three hours to fly over. What they do there will not work here. It is not much after mid day right now and we are getting 2% of UK power from solar. Over the last 24 hours we got only 0.6%.

You must live on a different planet to me.

 

[matthewslack]

With the widespread trend towards local power generation. everything from solar to SMRs, perhaps we should have stuck to Edisons local DC systems!
.

Great resilience comes with the nationally connected grid. But microgrids have been a thing for a couple of decades now, best of both worlds with a national grid connection for most of the time, but completely able to run disconnected albeit within the constraints of their collection of generators/batteries/loads.

When you try to beat the cost and usefulness of the centrally provided service, it turns out to be quite hard!

 

[matthewslack]

You persistently over simplify and distort. The reason people had no power in some localities during the storm was because the power lines were wrecked by falling trees. It was nothing to do with turbines not working. From memory we were getting about 20 Gigawatts from wind all through that period.

I have seen small wind generators destroyed by high winds. It was because they were small on the cheap installations put up by local farmers and they were not properly managed and were allowed to go into an over speed situation. A very good friend of mine built one on his farm himself and he had a big switch to short circuit the generator so that the magnetic braking prevented it from doing anything but turn slowly in a high wind.

He sold his farm at aged 93 and went to live with his daughter and the stupid woman who bought the farm took out the control mechanism to turn his workshop into a horse tack room. First big wind that came the turbine tore itself to pieces by rotating at ridiculous speed. Blades went far and wide and the tower was smashed down.

Any idea that wind farm owners would let their systems destroy themselves is ridiculous. It is only bad operation which would allow that to happen and people who have invested billions in a wind farm are not going to let that happen.

Big turbines have an upper wind limit, and will turn themselves out of the wind above it for self preservation. But that is set at a level not seen much of the time. I don't know the numbers, but is likely to be at a wind speed not expected to be exceeded more than 1% of the time. Might be somewhat tighter even than that.

Offshore wind sees much higher mean and peak wind speeds, so good data available these days on keeping them reliable.

 

[MikelBikel]

"In 2024 to date, there has been 338,314 new fully electric cars sold, which is 18.7% market share of all new cars registered this year. More fully electric cars have now been sold this year than the whole of last year.

In 2023, the last full year, there were 314,684 electric cars sold, as compared to 267,203 in 2022; a growth of 18%. The proportion of new cars that are electric has grown from 6.6% in 2020, to 18.7% in 2024."

LINK
.

"In the UK, analysts say strong EV sales in recent years were fuelled by company car purchases, thanks to generous tax breaks."
And preregistering cars to staff, family, friends.. the teaboy.. he'll, even I'll have a free one!

Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

There has been an unexpected slowdown in sales of electric cars. Could this be more than a blip?

www.bbc.com

They're OK going to the shops in town, maybe. But any serious journey and one'll have to hire a real car. Like yourself, I expect?

 

[Ghost1951]

So if the sun And wind are free why have electricity prices rocketed. No use for them if they cannot generate juice Economically!
Here's a cartoon to make the greenies feel better:

I think you are winding us up Mickel, You must be.

The answer to your question is that the then largest gas exporter in the world invaded another European state and we stopped buying gas from them, creating a massive shortage

Fortunately the largest gas exporter in the world is now the USA which has embraced fracking and it now exports huge amounts of liquefied gas which it sells us at the market price. Sadly, because of the war, this price is still a lot higher than what it was before.

When the UK grid is using mostly gas - like during the very calm period in November and early December, the price paid by National Grid for power goes very high - as much as 30p per kilowatt hour, when the wind is blowing the price falls to 7p a kilowatt hour. That's in the UK. I have no idea how you generate power in Ireland.

Right now the grid here is buying power from producers at 8.3 pence per kilowatt hour. 41.7% of it is coming from wind, 2.3% from solar and 35.7% is from gas.

 

[Ghost1951]

...and monitoring and control of the supply / demand balance is a thing of beauty and elegance!

The whole AC grid is designed to run at a constant frequency, but it doesn't. When supply exceeds demand, it slows down, and when supply exceeds demand, it speeds up. The state of balance can be seen simply by measuring the frequency! No need for complicated communications, the system tells it's own story.

As long as individual generators and loads are small compared to the total load, no fancy arrangements are needed to maintain a fairly close balance because adding or removing one generayor or load does not change the frequency by much.

There are limits on permitted frequency excursions, and an overriding requirement for the average frequency over some period to be precisely correct, which is why your mains power clock is always right.

Another elegant solution is the ability to command gas turbine generators to fire up. This can be forecasted in advance because of progress in weather forecasting, but non-combined cycle gas generators can be up and running in a couple of minutes if need be. They are less efficient than the combined cycle type which I think get about 60% of the heat converted into energy by using the turbine exhaust to generate steam and run another generator alongside the main one.

When all else fails they open the big tap on that Welsh pumped storage station and drain the big lake up the mountain. That thing can wack out some power within ten seconds of being asked for it.

The absolute limit of the grid frequency on the low side is a deviation of 1% down from 50 Hz. In practice it would only ever go there if there was an unexpected outage of a large generator. The usual maximum downward deviation is to 49.7 hz. On the upper side, a group of power generators must agree to cut power within 2 seconds of being asked to do it. The upper frequency limit is 52 hz.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/sites/default/files/documents/15420-Frequency%20and%20Voltage%20Operating%20Range.pdf

 

[matthewslack]

This thread does remind me of one of my favourite quotations:

'People who say 'it cannot be done' should not interrupt those who are doing it'.

 

[flecc]

They're OK going to the shops in town, maybe. But any serious journey and one'll have to hire a real car. Like yourself, I expect?

No, I've no need of or intention to hire.

I ignored the first Nissan Leaf in its two battery sizes since their range didn't suit, but bought the 2018 redesign which was right for me and remains so. Its range very far exceeds my longest one way journey and the huge proliferation of public rapid chargers means no problems for charging to return.

Your obsessive opposition to EVs means you completely fail to see the entire picture. The positives of sensible e-car ownership far exceed any negatives as just these few of the benefits show:

Every time I park in my garage I can have the car filled and ready for the next trip if I wish, without me being present. I can even have it pre-heated to start that next trip if in cold weather. Never, ever having to scrape ice off screens etc.

Often the i.c. alternatives:

Start with a cold car. Break the new trip early on to stand on a cold, wet and windy forecourt holding a fuel hose for several minutes. Or the previous time out after a long possibly tiring day, stopping to fill up before getting home to prepare for an early trip next morning.

Or when parked away from home in icy weather returning to an iced up car. Doesn't happen to me, I can have mine de-iced, warm and ready to drive comfortably away. Or the opposite, pre-cooled down for me.
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