Prices of the electricity we use to charge

Woosh

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flecc

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I don't like Farage or his political ambitions, but he is absolutely right that Nato, prompted and led by the USA, is entirely responsible for the Ukraine war. The continuous provocation that eventually led to Russia attacking started in 2004 as I'd long ago detailed in another thread,

Furthermore as I also explained, Ukraine could have removed any possibility of an attack at any time throughout all the following years. But instead they foolishly chose to elect a warmonger to lead them, into disaster as it has turned out., believing that the West through NATO would come to their rescue. They won't, eventually the West will accept an agreement to end the conflict since it's too inconvenient and expensive for us and the rest of the word for the conflict to continue.
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saneagle

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I don't like Farage or his political ambitions, but he is absolutely right that Nato, prompted and led by the USA, is entirely responsible for the Ukraine war. The continuous provocation that eventually led to Russia attacking started in 2004 as I'd long ago detailed in another thread,

Furthermore as I also explained, Ukraine could have removed any possibility of an attack at any time throughout all the following years. But instead they foolishly chose to elect a warmonger to lead them, into disaster as it has turned out., believing that the West through NATO would come to their rescue. They won't, eventually the West will accept an agreement to end the conflict since it's too inconvenient and expensive for us and the rest of the word for the conflict to continue.
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None of it was foolish. It was all planned and organised by highly intelligent people with deliberate intent.
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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I don't like Farage or his political ambitions, but he is absolutely right that Nato, prompted and led by the USA, is entirely responsible for the Ukraine war. The continuous provocation that eventually led to Russia attacking started in 2004 as I'd long ago detailed in another thread,

Furthermore as I also explained, Ukraine could have removed any possibility of an attack at any time throughout all the following years. But instead they foolishly chose to elect a warmonger to lead them, into disaster as it has turned out., believing that the West through NATO would come to their rescue. They won't, eventually the West will accept an agreement to end the conflict since it's too inconvenient and expensive for us and the rest of the word for the conflict to continue.
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I disagree. Putin is entirely to blame. He can choose to step down after two terms of office but he didn't. The war in Ukraine is a direct result of him clinging to power.
He first took Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 and encouraged by Obama and Trump for doing nothing to stop him, he thought he can carry on with his agression.
We can't go back to the kind of world existing before the two world wars. The UN conventions are set out specifically to confirm that members cannot use military means to change international borders.
 
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flecc

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I disagree. Putin is entirely to blame. He can choose to step down after two terms of office but he didn't. The war in Ukraine is a direct result of him clinging to power.
He first took Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 and encouraged by Obama and Trump for doing nothing to stop him, he thought he can carry on with his agression.
We can't go back to the kind of world existing before the two world wars. The UN conventions are set out specifically to confirm that members cannot use military means to change international borders.
You need to reset your calendar, taking into account all the events your were taking no notice of in earlier decades, so as a result you've fallen for the American lie that Putin is intent on reviving the USSR.

He has no such intent, knowing that is impossible anyway, and as I've shown you before, events in Georgia have proved that is the case. Putin's intent remains what it has been for well over two decades, to have friendly non-NATO neighbours, even if that means using force to make them friendly, as in Georgia's case. He's messed up in the case of Finland of course, but he knows that is easily repairable later.

How long do you think the West will continue to fund this pointless war? That is what will end it, simple economics,
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Woosh

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How long? Until Putin goes I guess.
As for winning, the West has already won, like in chess, we are in middle game. Putin can't last forever.
 

Ghost1951

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I disagree. Putin is entirely to blame. He can choose to step down after two terms of office but he didn't. The war in Ukraine is a direct result of him clinging to power.
He first took Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 and encouraged by Obama and Trump for doing nothing to stop him, he thought he can carry on with his agression.
We can't go back to the kind of world existing before the two world wars. The UN conventions are set out specifically to confirm that members cannot use military means to change international borders.
The only thing I would add to the above is that he was obliged to step down after two terms in office by the Russian Constitution, but having got his talons on power, he made sure that he would never let go while the blood moved in his veins. Even then, be sure he will have installed a successor, so that as in North Korea, the state gang controls all.

Blaming Ukraine for insisting on its own independence is EXACTLY the same as blaming a business owner for being attacked by Mafia goons. Of course he should have paid up and let himself be blackmailed, shouldn't he? If only everyone pandered to Putin, the world would be at peace and electricity prices would be lower.

I have a personal rule. NEVER pander to unreasonable behaviour. It works.
 

Ghost1951

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How long? Until Putin goes I guess.
As for winning, the West has already won, like in chess, we are in middle game. Putin can't last forever.
Putin can't go, because he has stolen vast amounts of money and has murdered a lot of people who got in his way.When he goes,it will be in a box. The problem is, he has surrounded himself with FSB goons, so the likely successors will be at least as dangerous.
 
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Ghost1951

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How long? Until Putin goes I guess.
As for win Putin can't last forever.
As for winning, the West has already won, like in chess, we are in middle game. Putin can't last forever.
I don't think this is true. Putin has been quite adept at getting around sanctions. NK has sent him 5 million artillery shells. He can pound the Ukrainian defences very well with those. One of the biggest set backs was the obscene carry on with the Republicans in the Senate who stropped the transfer of weapons for their own internal political reasons. Putin could have had unacceptable losses imposed with modern American weapons back in the winter and spring. Now the Ukrainians have lost a lot of good men and some territory.
 
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Ghost1951

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We are seeing a new axis of authoritarian states coming together to fight against democracy. Who is helping Putin?

North Korea
China
Iran

These have something in common. They are all repressive dictatorial states.
Then there are the venal, grasping scum who will pal up with Putin to get cheap oil.

India and African states who see a chance to make some money.

The only way around this is to hit them all with total sanctions unless they desist.
 

Woosh

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I don't think this is true. Putin has been quite adept at getting around sanctions.
Look at the value of the rouble since 2022. The rouble is a rough indicator of balance of power or success of Russian strategy. Putin made tons of profit at the beginning of the Ukraine war, the rouble was $0.0174 and now around $0.0111. Another indicator is the number of friendly nations which support Putin at the UN. India and China have distanced themselves. All it takes is for Belarus and Kaliningrad people to look West for their future and Putin will be finished.
 

Woosh

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I think you're suffering some sort of delusions.
Putin's hope is in Trump winning the election. Even if Trump did, which is a big if, given how unhinged Trump appears to be and polls recently, Trump would still be forced by the generals to choose Ukraine and against Putin for the foreseeable future.
 

Ghost1951

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Putin's hope is in Trump winning the election. Even if Trump did, which is a big if, given how unhinged Trump appears to be and polls recently, Trump would still be forced by the generals to choose Ukraine and against Putin for the foreseeable future.
It has never been my impression that the generals in the USA called the shots about anything other than how to best carry out the orders they were given.
 

flecc

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Blaming Ukraine for insisting on its own independence is EXACTLY the same as blaming a business owner for being attacked by Mafia goons. Of course he should have paid up and let himself be blackmailed, shouldn't he?
Ukraines independance was never threatened by Russia. It was Russia who created the country called Ukraine just over a century ago when Lenin gave them their independence for the first time ever in 1917 as a separate country and Krushchev who later expanded Ukraine's territory and power. Before 1917 Ukraine, wholly on the Russian Steppes, had been a part of Russia, before that a part of Poland, being wholly contained within the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, and variously at other times owned by others like the Muscovites and Austro-Hungarians. That is why Ukraine is such a mongrel country with many languages and cultures, chiefly Ukrainian, Russian and Polish.

Putin wanted them to remain independent as a friendly neighbour, not a US ally as a member of NATO which is what the USA was trying to engineer there and in Georgia from 2004 on. Hardly surprising given that NATO was expressly created by the USA as a specifically anti Russian/USSR organisation, something still very much alive in Russian political conciousness.
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Woosh

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It has never been my impression that the generals in the USA called the shots about anything other than how to best carry out the orders they were given.
they did not have any reason to go against their commander in chief until now.
Even maga republicans in congress had to pass the aid package to Ukraine. As I understand, the US voters are divided roughly one third registered Dem, one third registered Rep and one third independents. Among the independents, Trump attracts young voters, low income voters who believe that their living standard was better when Trump was president. Biden attracts older voters, whites, women and those with higher income. I think Biden is going to win the swing states and Dem to take control of the senate in November.
 

flecc

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The only way around this is to hit them all with total sanctions unless they desist.
Sanctions don't work for the intended purpose, have never ever worked, will never work. They are pretty good at making lots of people rich defeating them.
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Woosh

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Sanctions don't work for the intended purpose, have never ever worked, will never work. They are pretty good at making lots of people rich defeating them.
in the case of Putin, sanctions have worked relatively well. The West managed to compensate for lack of Russian oil and gas thanks to Canada, Norway and the world market. Russia has to sell oil at deep discount (no more than $60/barrel). Gazprom loses money for the first time in its history. The Russian economy has to support the war. Russia will emerge from the war a much weaker power.