New Name for Forum
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Cyclotricity rate that motor 250W nominal. Whatever it can take is irrelevant.
You should know the subject better before screaming into our ears.
...but it's OK for you to decide what the rest of us TALK about?
You and Flud need to have a long, hard look at your posts.
Me, I can't be arsed with anymore than skim reading them.
Yawn.
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Hi Eddie,Somewhat disappointing is, is that the off road section has now gone.
Like many I took the off road terminology to mean exactly that. People using e-mtb's off road, be that on either public and private land.
As things now stand, legal e-mtb users now have nowhere other than in the Electric Cycles section to post threads.....
I don't mind having a separate dedicated sub-forum for e-mountain biking. In the past, members have expressed a dislike for having too many forums. But if the demand is there, I'm happy to create one.
Thanks
Russ
More like a couple of miserable OAPs who have nothing better to do with their time other than to preach to and judge others.....
I did try to tell him, but he wouldn't listen. Perhaps it hard to hear from way up there on the high horse.
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I've been out for a quick spin while the sun shines (for the first time this weekend) and you are still at it blah blah blah blah. give it a rest
Summary: 250w ok to ride ,above 250w not ok to ride on public road/land. simple. if you do ride one above 250w and get caught tough s**t.
there all is clear.
Summary: 250w ok to ride ,above 250w not ok to ride on public road/land. simple. if you do ride one above 250w and get caught tough s**t.
there all is clear.
Sounds good from my perhaps selfish point of view.
The issue that I can now foresee with it though, is the cross over point of those forum users who by the nature of their bikes should only post in UK private land section.
As things stand on here it could all just become sadly very messy, and not because of mud.
Nice idea though.
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Helen, with respect, I wouldn't be so sure on that and I would get some legal advice on this from your solicitors.
If you're advertising and allowing 1000W kits to be sold which are clearly illegal, and you know them to be illegal, and you're also providing a forum where people can advise people how to install them and that is potentially breaking the law. If it results in some teenager being killed, and this forum is at the centre of it, it will not be going for you or the owners of the site will it, even if you avoid criminal actions yourselves. It would be very bad.
You may not be directly liable under criminal law, but the parents of any teenager or child killed, might take that the view that you're partially responsible and so take you to the civil courts for compensation, for advertising the products without clear warnings and not properly supervising the forum and making sure the off-road bikes are in a separate category, and off-road kits advertised carry clear legal warnings that they're not legal or safe for use on public footpaths and roads.
There's a lot of legislation applies on commercial websites such as this, which would apply. Trades Description Act, Supply of Goods & Services Act..although you're not actually supplying goods and are a third party so you're not directly liable for any accident, I'd be concerned as Flud said, if you provide access to those products and facilitate what is clearly criminal activity, then you're complicit in those offenses, there's the possibility of either Trading Standards and the Advertising Standards Agency involvement at the very least, and a substantal fine..they'd certainly have legal remit over a website like this and take an interest in the advertising aspect.
Well you are sponsored by one member who is selling 1000W kits which are clearly not road legal. And you are carrying advertisements for the kits?
Don't you think you have some ethical and social responsibility towards public safety, and also industry responsibilities, considering the influence this site has, and the damage a major accident incident could have on it?
How do you know teenagers are not joining this forum?
Surely if you separated the off-road and road-legal bikes into two categories, that would make it far clearer for consumers, and also be more responsible on your part, as significant stakeholders in this industry?
Someone mentioned earlier you did originally have a separate off-road category for higher-powered bikes, but you seem to have removed it and merged that into the general electric bicycles category?
That makes no sense, since anything which doesn't meet EAPC isn't an e-bike is it? And a 1000W kit turns a mountain bike into an electric motorcycle.
Free speech is all very well and good and I'm certain in favour of that, but you also have to balance that against your responsibilities as a business, and major industry stakeholder with significant influence over consumers buying behaviour.
I would at the very least, as Flud and several other members have suggested, create a separate off-road bikes category, and make sure people discussing high-powered non EAPC bikes are confined to doing it there, and put some kind of sticky notice at the top stating it's not legal to ride those on public roads or footpaths, and the site does not endorse or recommend anyone doing that. You could put a link to your road-legal categories and advertisers and a link to your law page, so then at least you're appearing to be acting responsibly without it affecting your business, advertisers, or members.
Many members who ride high-powered no-EAPC bikes have indicated they wouldn't mind having their own forum category. So there doesn't seem to be any reason not to do that, unless it's for commercial reasons? That raises serious ethical questions though if that is the case.
Although sales of over-speed and over-powered electric bikes are legal (they are governed by their use on UK roads) we drew a line in the sand some time (years) ago by not allowing advertising banners to promote these on the Pedelecs site, even when advertisers’ broader businesses sold such models (we have in the past refused to host banners that promoted 500w bikes for example).
Sorry but that sounds like a bit of cop out to me. You are a significant stakeholder in this industry and so with that comes some responsibilities and the need for ethics in your business. Without that, you're indirectly facilitating and some may argue, even encouraging illegal activity which could potentially result in fatalities which would undermine the entire industry for everyone.
It's not an issue of free speech. We're not suggesting you alienate or remove all high-powered illegal e-bikes. Just be clearer that they're not legal and keep them out of the mainstream e-bike category is all people are saying. At least then, if there is a horrible fatal accident and it was someone connected with this forum, you won't have that on your conscious or your website plastered all over the news in a negative light.
Surely a bit of common sense and ethical responsibility is called for here, especially now we have no industry regulatory body and the market is rapidly changing with a lot of high-powered kits emerging in the UK domestic marketplace. Your site is the no1 place newcomers head for for advice, and many come here with absolutely no knowledge of the legal side, and just want the best and fastest e-bike...if people steer them towards illegal kits, and help them install that, and suggest thats ok on roads, that's surely not a good situation for your site, for that person, or for the wider industry.
If that person wanted a higher powered bike and went to the general forum, he could be directed to the off-road category and there he would see the legal notices clearly at the top. See what I'm saying? There'd be no ambiguity on the part of the site, nothing misleading, regarding the legality and safety of e-bike building and riding.
At the end of the day, you have a great great site here, and it's made a huuge difference to my life and a lot of peoples lives discovering e-bikes. However we have to accept that the market is unregulated, changing now, and a lot of younger people are getting e-bikes as the prices have fallen a lot and importing kits and batteries is no longer the big hassle it was 2 years ago.
I think you need to move with the market, and tidy your shop up a little a bit so to speak..so that you're seen to be acting more responsibly that's all. Nobody will be affected, but people will be the wiser for it and then if people still decide to ride illegal bikes on the road, well that's their decision and you have played your part in trying to caution people on the legal and safety risks involved with that.
Nobody wants to see anyone seriously hurt or killed because of a silly over-powered e-bike incident, and then a knee-jerk reaction from the government and your site lose a lot of its advertisers. That would be a bad day for us all.
And my likes % age has gone upto 35% ..ie likes in relation to posts.
I,ve also had a few pm,s saying they totally agree..
So somebody thinks its a positive input. ( including mods?)
But if folk take offence at standpoint myself and morphix have that's their responsibility not ours.
If nothing comes of it, the debate it has caused has been positive.. It seems to have kept Alan awake as well and soundwave is uploading pictures of cute dogs rather than 10 kW bikes...so that's positive too.
Today 4 ish. Fantastic.
You have an advertiser, "Electric Bike Conversions" offering illegal 500W and 1000W bikes advertising on your site with some very dubious and some might say outright illegal advertising on their own site. Ironically the advert appears on your page about the law too!
http://www.electric-bike-conversions.co.uk/acatalog/Rear_Hub_Electric_Bike_Kits.html
Look at the area where they suggest 500W and 1000W can be legally rode on roads destricited to 250W and then offer to give a means of destricition as well!
As you know, riding any e-bike with a motor rated higher than 250W is illegal. So that's one advertiser that's not legal on your site and I just picked it randomly! And offering to send people a de-restrict code (and getting them to sign a disclaimer) is highly unethical and irresponsible.
To be fair though, your legal guidance page is very clearly set out and fairly easy to find.
You might take that view, but will the authorities and the families of anyone involved in a fatal accident? I'm not so sure.
If I might offer my opinion..dealing with traders one by one and trying to moderate a forum of this size is going to difficult and seems a not very practical way of approaching of this.
Why not just do set clear guidelines for traders, have two separate categories with the legal position clearly stated on the off-road one...and then if there's any cross-over or traders misbehaving, your forum members will soon report the posts?
Until it gets into discussion on legal v illegal it seems! And why? Because the two have been lumped together for some reason.
I've only been back less than 24 hours and that's not been my experience Helen unfortunately. I've been subjected to some quite nasty comments and a tirade of abuse, and I've also seen Flud a fellow member also subjected to even worse.
When I was an active member of this forum for 4 years 2010-2014, we had none of this. People would never behave like they are now. Russ wouldn't allow it! It was very rare for people to get into a situation where they were arguing and exchanging personal insults. I can only remember 2 such occasions in those 4 years were it happened and Russ had to intervene.
The key difference then was, these over-powered e-bikes were not as previaliant as they appear to be now on this forum. Sure, people had the odd 350W bike but they didn't go shouting about it.
Now, you have a very very different forum and situation, with people not only openly bragging about high-powered bikes, but basically openly defying the law and sticking two fingers up. This is just not good. Not good at all. It's like I said many times, it's although common sense has been lost somewhere.
We only have had an unregulated market for e-bikes because it has so far managed to self-regulate itself and most owners have acted responsibly and not broken the law with massively over-powered e-bikes on our roads. If that is changing now as indeed it seems to be, going by the heated forum debate over the last 24 hours, that raises some very serious legal and public safety questions and may well attract the attention of the police and the government before long.
I would recommend everyone remembers that our relaxed unregulated marketplace is not a guaranteed given, as some people seem to think. It could be regulated at any time if people openly defy the law and keep pushing their luck. We only need one major accident or incident, and that would be it. The beginning of the end of many small businesses. Heavy regulation would certainly kill the DIY market overnight, as it did to the health supplements industry, all the smaller business just disappeared. That's why I'm so fired up on this issue. There's so much at stake here, and you of all sites with so much to lose, should really appreciate that as website making your livings operating in this industry.
I agree with the other comment, you're putting advertising revenue ahead of public safety and the safety of your members (maybe not knowingly), if you don't take a much clearer and firmer ground on the sale and use of illegal motorcycles.
Sure you have the law page, but you're allowing illegal bike vendors to push their bikes via your site and the forum is completely mixed up with illegal motorcycle users discussing that with e-bikes, which gives entirely the wrong impression and legitimates what is a criminal act. The two things do not belong together on the same forum really, so create a separate category at the very least, if you want to be able to hold your head up and claim you're acting fully responsibly as a business operating in the e-bike industry and putting legality and safety ahead of profits.
That's just my opinion.
Do I get a medal for reading this lot?
The Forum used to be a constructive place to discuss e-bikes,I have to say that Eddie-O could be colourful in his language and quite emotional ,but he bought objective criticism to the forum and the discussion around his comments did make some of us traders think about how we could make improvements.
I have been involved in e-bikes for about 6 years,initially we imported the bikes that were readily available from China,these tended to be the Dutch style 'sit upright' type bikes,the Dutch still liked these.
Eddie commented on the rack mounted,rear hub drive produced a tail heavy bike that was also very heavy,in those days about 27 kgs,also the Brits liked Mountain style bikes so why couldn't we have Mountain style e-bikes....Kudos listened and produced the Tornado/Arriba series,the battery moved on the down tube and the bike overal lighter down to about 22/23 kgs.
I see a new category of e-bikes in the immediate future,even sports bike riders are coming round to understanding that they won't always be able to do a Wiggo up the hills,they want to keep the sports riding style with low rolling resistance tyres,stealth batteries and motor,they don't need big grunt motors or very long range batteries,they are still cyclists but need some help up the steep hills,the weight will be down to 18/19 kgs.
In six years we have taken almost 10 kgs out of the weight of these e-bikes,it has all been done without recourse to expensive bespoke parts or expensive materials.
I have a big commercial incentive in killing off these illegals but surely my foregoing posting is more interesting than these aimless and political postings which must be so boring for so many.
Where do members think that e-bikes will progress in the future?
KudosDave
The Forum used to be a constructive place to discuss e-bikes,I have to say that Eddie-O could be colourful in his language and quite emotional ,but he bought objective criticism to the forum and the discussion around his comments did make some of us traders think about how we could make improvements.
I have been involved in e-bikes for about 6 years,initially we imported the bikes that were readily available from China,these tended to be the Dutch style 'sit upright' type bikes,the Dutch still liked these.
Eddie commented on the rack mounted,rear hub drive produced a tail heavy bike that was also very heavy,in those days about 27 kgs,also the Brits liked Mountain style bikes so why couldn't we have Mountain style e-bikes....Kudos listened and produced the Tornado/Arriba series,the battery moved on the down tube and the bike overal lighter down to about 22/23 kgs.
I see a new category of e-bikes in the immediate future,even sports bike riders are coming round to understanding that they won't always be able to do a Wiggo up the hills,they want to keep the sports riding style with low rolling resistance tyres,stealth batteries and motor,they don't need big grunt motors or very long range batteries,they are still cyclists but need some help up the steep hills,the weight will be down to 18/19 kgs.
In six years we have taken almost 10 kgs out of the weight of these e-bikes,it has all been done without recourse to expensive bespoke parts or expensive materials.
I have a big commercial incentive in killing off these illegals but surely my foregoing posting is more interesting than these aimless and political postings which must be so boring for so many.
Where do members think that e-bikes will progress in the future?
KudosDave
please please please stop calling them offroad... offroad is actually worse for everyone.
onroad the risk of it effecting anyone other than the individual riding the bike and the person who sold it to them is minimal.
if people use their dongle'd and sPedelec bikes offroad it has the potential to effect everyone who rides eBikes offroad and even everyone who rides mountain bikes in that area. Any impact on the eMTB industry will effect us all.
The impact of an accident on road won't I suspect effect us all.
Please realise off road is just as illegal and is actually worse for others.
Sorry
I just the wrong end of the stick there the way I read it came across as a put down. I'm just feeling a bit tetchy from some of the insults and remarks people have been making.
I agree it's much nicer to try and get along and be friends. I was hoping to come back and see the nice friendly place I remembered.
Life is too short for these big arguments!
My introduction back hasn't quite gone as planned...
The legal v off-road issue is something I obviously have very strong views on and the need for ethics and common sense in business. I also didn't like how Flud was being treated for what seems to me like just sharing the same views I hold and having some common sense.
I've tried to get that across and offer him some support. I enjoy a good lively debate, but I think this one has gone too far and is no longer productive so let's just agree to disagree.
If the forum won't take steps to separate the two categories, then so be it.
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