I’d like to respond to some posts on this thread:
Flud “
[This] Forum complicit in lawsuit” and “I could not care less about folk breaking laws. Its the advertising of it on here which will do the damage..”
As Flecc pointed out, we can't be “complicit with any liability in something that is legal. There is no law preventing the sale of e-bikes or
dongles that are not legal to use in any public area”.
Helen, with respect, I wouldn't be so sure on that and I would get some legal advice on this from your solicitors.
If you're advertising and allowing 1000W kits to be sold which are clearly illegal, and you know them to be illegal, and you're also providing a forum where people can advise people how to install them and that is potentially breaking the law. If it results in some teenager being killed, and this forum is at the centre of it, it will not be going for you or the owners of the site will it, even if you avoid criminal actions yourselves. It would be very bad.
You may not be directly liable under criminal law, but the parents of any teenager or child killed, might take that the view that you're partially responsible and so take you to the civil courts for compensation, for advertising the products without clear warnings and not properly supervising the forum and making sure the off-road bikes are in a separate category, and off-road kits advertised carry clear legal warnings that they're not legal or safe for use on public footpaths and roads.
There's a lot of legislation applies on commercial websites such as this, which would apply. Trades Description Act, Supply of Goods & Services Act..although you're not actually supplying goods and are a third party so you're not directly liable for any accident, I'd be concerned as Flud said, if you provide access to those products and facilitate what is clearly criminal activity, then you're complicit in those offenses, there's the possibility of either Trading Standards and the Advertising Standards Agency involvement at the very least, and a substantal fine..they'd certainly have legal remit over a website like this and take an interest in the advertising aspect.
Juicy- “I believe should be more guarded about the promotion of dangerous bikes.”
We don’t allow the promotion of bikes that are clearly non-EAPC compliant on advertising on Pedelecs (e.g banners, or bikes listed in the bike directory). We do allow free speech on the forum since we do not think censorship is appropriate on an open forum.
(and doing has been suggested, that is separating off-road e-bikes from legal road bikes)
Well you are sponsored by one member who is selling 1000W kits which are clearly not road legal. And you are carrying advertisements for the kits?
Don't you think you have some ethical and social responsibility towards public safety, and also industry responsibilities, considering the influence this site has, and the damage a major accident incident could have on it?
How do you know teenagers are not joining this forum?
Surely if you separated the off-road and road-legal bikes into two categories, that would make it far clearer for consumers, and also be more responsible on your part, as significant stakeholders in this industry?
Someone mentioned earlier you did originally have a separate off-road category for higher-powered bikes, but you seem to have removed it and merged that into the general electric bicycles category?
That makes no sense, since anything which doesn't meet EAPC isn't an e-bike is it? And a 1000W kit turns a mountain bike into an electric motorcycle.
Free speech is all very well and good and I'm certain in favour of that, but you also have to balance that against your responsibilities as a business, and major industry stakeholder with significant influence over consumers buying behaviour.
I would at the very least, as Flud and several other members have suggested, create a separate off-road bikes category, and make sure people discussing high-powered non EAPC bikes are confined to doing it there, and put some kind of sticky notice at the top stating it's not legal to ride those on public roads or footpaths, and the site does not endorse or recommend anyone doing that. You could put a link to your road-legal categories and advertisers and a link to your law page, so then at least you're appearing to be acting responsibly without it affecting your business, advertisers, or members.
Many members who ride high-powered no-EAPC bikes have indicated they wouldn't mind having their own forum category. So there doesn't seem to be any reason not to do that, unless it's for commercial reasons? That raises serious ethical questions though if that is the case.
Although sales of over-speed and over-powered electric bikes are legal (they are governed by their use on UK roads) we drew a line in the sand some time (years) ago by not allowing advertising banners to promote these on the Pedelecs site, even when advertisers’ broader businesses sold such models (we have in the past refused to host banners that promoted 500w bikes for example).
We are not a regulatory body we are an information site, with a forum, news and guides.
Sorry but that sounds like a bit of cop out to me. You are a significant stakeholder in this industry and so with that comes some responsibilities and the need for ethics in your business. Without that, you're indirectly facilitating and some may argue, even encouraging illegal activity which could potentially result in fatalities which would undermine the entire industry for everyone.
Free speech by individuals who’ve purchased electric bikes and are participating in the forum - which as part of the internet is global - is not something we feel is right to censor and as has been pointed out we do employ a light touch moderation wise on the forum, because in previous debates that was what was asked for by members.
It's not an issue of free speech. We're not suggesting you alienate or remove all high-powered illegal e-bikes. Just be clearer that they're not legal and keep them out of the mainstream e-bike category is all people are saying. At least then, if there is a horrible fatal accident and it was someone connected with this forum, you won't have that on your conscious or your website plastered all over the news in a negative light.
Surely a bit of common sense and ethical responsibility is called for here, especially now we have no industry regulatory body and the market is rapidly changing with a lot of high-powered kits emerging in the UK domestic marketplace. Your site is the no1 place newcomers head for for advice, and many come here with absolutely no knowledge of the legal side, and just want the best and fastest e-bike...if people steer them towards illegal kits, and help them install that, and suggest thats ok on roads, that's surely not a good situation for your site, for that person, or for the wider industry.
If that person wanted a higher powered bike and went to the general forum, he could be directed to the off-road category and there he would see the legal notices clearly at the top. See what I'm saying? There'd be no ambiguity on the part of the site, nothing misleading, regarding the legality and safety of e-bike building and riding.
At the end of the day, you have a great great site here, and it's made a huuge difference to my life and a lot of peoples lives discovering e-bikes. However we have to accept that the market is unregulated, changing now, and a lot of younger people are getting e-bikes as the prices have fallen a lot and importing kits and batteries is no longer the big hassle it was 2 years ago.
I think you need to move with the market, and tidy your shop up a little a bit so to speak..so that you're seen to be acting more responsibly that's all. Nobody will be affected, but people will be the wiser for it and then if people still decide to ride illegal bikes on the road, well that's their decision and you have played your part in trying to caution people on the legal and safety risks involved with that.
Nobody wants to see anyone seriously hurt or killed because of a silly over-powered e-bike incident, and then a knee-jerk reaction from the government and your site lose a lot of its advertisers. That would be a bad day for us all.