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Mar 9, 2016
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I don't understand why we want the biggest Pedelec Forum in UK to be the very place any one wanting negative information about pedelecs would come to...???

It shouts "look at us ignoring all your rules,this is what we are doing, you cant stop us"

Well they can if they choose to.
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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flud & Morphix: I am still scratching my head for not knowing where you want to go with this. Let me tell you one thing about powerful illegal bikes (like the GreyP which is switchable to road legal mode): they are in such a vanishingly small number that their usefulness in pushing technologies forward is one of if not the only thing that makes for interesting reading. One other thing, Flud, you may not notice this: the 1000W you find on ebay are rather inefficient in terms of energy usage and poor hill climbers because they are direct drive motors, that's why they are cheap, heavy and use so many Watts (about £150 against £330 for the cheapest legal kit sold by sellers on this forum). Their saving grace is reliability and silent operation. They are only illegal when derestricted. I expect some of the mainstream suppliers may use them and label them as 250W. 1000W kits are certainly not 4 times more powerful than the 250W legal kits, so stop exagerating, it just shows you up as uninformed posters.
The main group of people who may get e-MTBs banned in some venues are as I said before, fit cyclists riding German made machines with fitted dongle. Their crime is not buying an illegal bike but derestricting a legal bike. You can easily argue that derestriction is not only illegal, it will also increase their riding risk and damage their bikes. Go after them, you'll find most members will lend you their support.
 
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Fordulike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2010
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I don't understand why we want the biggest Pedelec Forum in UK to be the very place any one wanting negative information about pedelecs would come to...???

It shouts "look at us ignoring all your rules,this is what we are doing, you cant stop us"

Well they can if they choose to.
Mmmmmmm, that's a bit amateur dramatical. If you search through my threads, you will find I post a lot of useful stuff that is non illegal bike related.

I try to post reviews on any good products I find, and I hope people come to this forum to read the other good things that are discussed here, not just the debate about illegal bikes.

BTW folks, the portable bike workstand, that I reviewed a while back, has come down in price to £5.10, making it even better value for money ;)

http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bike-foldable-and-portable-workstand.19991/
 
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Mar 9, 2016
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flud & Morphix: I am still scratching my head for not knowing where you want to go with this. Let me tell you one thing about powerful illegal bikes (like the GreyP which is switchable to road legal mode): they are in such a vanishingly small number that their usefulness in pushing technologies forward is one of if not the only thing that makes for interesting reading. One other thing, Flud, you may not notice this: the 1000W you find on ebay are rather inefficient in terms of energy usage and poor hill climbers because they are direct drive motors, that's why they are cheap, heavy and use so many Watts (about £150 against £330 for the cheapest legal kit sold by sellers on this forum). Their saving grace is reliability and silent operation. They are only illegal when derestricted. I expect some of the mainstream suppliers may use them and label them as 250W. 1000W kits are certainly not 4 times more powerful than the 250W legal kits, so stop exagerating, it just shows you up as uninformed posters.
The main group of people who may get e-MTBs banned in some venues are as I said before, fit cyclists riding German made machines with fitted dongle. Their crime is not buying an illegal bike but derestricting a legal bike. You can easily argue that derestriction is not only illegal, it will also increase their riding risk and damage their bikes. Go after them, you'll find most members will lend you their support.
Why is it on here folk comment about statements nobody has ever made ??? What on earth has telling me a 1000w motor is not 4 x as powerful as a 250 got to do with this thread..???

I thought we,d all stopped insulting folk because you didn't agree with them?? No we are not poorly informed. Neither of us.

Yes it might well be a storm in a tea cup,helped along by us all.

We have our opinions about responsibilities of forum, you have yours..
Said it before we are all going around in circles saying same things..
So...
Conclusion...agree to differ..we are all adults.
Well most anyway...

Ford
I wasn't speaking about you personally. Just browse through any section, there are loads of threads about 500w plus bikes.
 
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morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
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www.cyclecharge.org.uk
In our case that's the reverse of the truth. At one time power assisted pedal bikes had to be registered with number plates front and rear, VED with tax disc, third party insured and a full motorcycle licence was necessary.

In stages all that has been removed in favour of sanity and more freedom, and the authorities are not about to lose their sanity on this subject.
.
I'm truly astonished you can make such a statement.

If you compare the statute book now, to how it was 30-40 years ago, the UK is like a police-state, in some ways we have less freedoms than CHINA.

1) We have Political Corrrectness laws removing the most basic of all human rights (the freedom to express opinions and share thoughts) by telling us what we can say or cannot say, online and off-line, in areas of religion, social history, human sexuality, ethnicity and immigration, politics. If you express an opinion which is not PC and say anything which is deemed even slightly discriminatory (and the scope of that definition is very wide) towards any particular peoples, you've committed a criminal offense or get labeled and become a political and social outcast. Ken Livingstone the former London major is the latest PC victim. He dared to use the name Hitler in a sentence and make historic references to the Nazis being pro-Zionist, and immediately faced a media firestorm and is now suspended from the Labour party and his political career hanging in the balance, as many Jews took offense.

2) We have laws telling us a political party cannot represent its own ethnic citizens

3) We have laws telling us we must do business with people we might prefer not to.

4) We can no longer own or use hand-guns (even the British Olympics pistol team had to practice overseas).

5) We can no longer hunt foxes on private land with dogs.

6) Under new the new Public Order Act, there's a whole range of new offenses and new police powers governing what people can and can't do in public spaces. ie We can no longer assemble in public gatherings if the police decide that. The police can order a group of 3 or more people to disperse from an area, and even restrict or remove the right of individuals to travel to certain areas. Drinking alcohol in many public places is banned, as is smoking cigarettes, because it might harm or upset someone.

7) We can no longer protest march on certain issues in certain areas if the police and/or government decides that.

8) People can be arrested and detained, for up to 28 days, without any charges being brought.

9) People can be searched in the street, even a full body cavity search, merely on the suspicion of being in possession of illegal drugs.

10) Cannabis a long-time considered "soft-drug" by the UK and many countries, is now a B-Class drug with potentially very hard sentences for even a relatively small amount, which is automatically deemed "intent to supply" and so carries a prison sentence.

11) Replica blank-firing firearms have been outlawed from public use in the UK and possession of them carries the same sentences as a real firearm possession if arrested in some situations. New legislation dictates that replica handgun collectors can only have replica guns with bright red plastic nozzles indicating its a non-firing replica, so there's no public confusion.

12) It's now technically illegal to criticize a religion in the UK in a very public way, if it's likely to cause upset to anyone of that religion.

13) New legislation is being passed to regulate what people can say or do on social media, making it a criminal offense to insult people online if it causes them "alarm and distress".

14) Businesses open to the public now have to build easy access ramps and other facilities, such as toilets for disabled people, and must bear that cost.

15) In the 21st century in supposedly the most democratic place on earth, it's still a criminal offense in the UK to watch a television (or any live broadcast) without a license where the vast majority of the revenue goes to one corporation of which the government is the sole stakeholder in, and owner of. The government is now proposing even more regislation in this area to make it easier to harass and fine people, who choose not to watch live TV or allow TV Licensing into their homes to inspect.

16) All health supplements (both herbal and vitamin/mineral) now have to be individually licensed and approved by the government. Not satisfied with this, the EU and UK government regulated the health and beauty industry even further. Any products which claim benefits or medical usage, have to be registered as "health devices" and meet compliance criteria. Even basic one-part products in some cases.

17) It's now a serious criminal offense to have a knife with a fixed blade over 2 inches in a public place without good reason, carrying a maximum fine of £5,000 or 4 years imprisonment.

18) The Brown government proposed a controversial "Data Bill" which had two main aims: 1) to make it a legal requirement for ISP's to store ALL data from everyones internet connection 2) to allow government agencies and police, the powers to access that data freely without a warrant. Thankfully that Bill didn't succeed, but we have a watered down version of it none the less, and the government does have access to "meta data" and the scope has been increased to include phone calls and text messages, as well as internet communications.

19) In addition to the above, the UK has more CCTV cameras (under police and/or government control) than any country on earth.

20) The government passed new legislation allowing it by-pass the Data Protection Act and have access to peoples bank accounts who are suspected of welfare fraud or money laundering. Forget innocent until proven guilty. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, right?

21) Anti-terrorism laws now give police and the government more powers than ever before, and many social rights groups in the UK have made persistent accusations that the government and police have abused these powers for non-terrorist (and often political) purposes.

22) Due to EU legislation harmonising UK economic, trade and taxation policies, HMRC is forced to apply a grossly unfair import tax and tariff system (which is basically legalized racketeering) on many small businesses (my own included) who are taxed massively and disproportionately on small imports into the EU (often paying as much as 25-30% import taxes), relative to large companies, which often pay hardly any or none, as they have the ability to by-pass EU borders and bring goods and services to the EU marketplace via the backdoor. As a result, any small UK businesses engaged in imports have the highest tax burden now in the Western world, and are at a major trade disadvantage against the United States and another countries which have zero-import taxes and duty. You literally are better off either leaving the UK completely and moving to the States if your business is importing goods regularly, else importing your goods via the States, and exporting them directly from there to end users in the EU.

23) Under EU legislation we can longer decide who we wish to deport from the UK (if they hold an EU passport), nor how many migrants are allowed into the UK each year.

24) Not satisfied with minimum wage legislation imposed on all businesses employing people, the government has now gone even further, raising it and and enforcing it further. We now have the absurd situation where someone collecting litter in the street is paid the same wage as someone assembling soldering and electronic consumer products, making it extremely difficult for many small start-up and early growth businesses to employ people, and thus creating an industry of "flexible temporary contract" employment agencies, where nobody has long-term job security anymore, or can even can be sure how many hours they work they will get from one week to the next.

25) The right to use a throttle on an e-bike without pedaling that existed in the UK since the early 1980's has been removed under new legislation which came into effect January of this year, as the EU pushed the UK to ratify the EU Directive on e-bikes and remove a significant difference (read, freedom) between UK and EU law.

The Blair government passed over 1,000 pieces of legislation in its 10 years of government, many of which affected or restricted social and even basic human rights.

You could look at some of these laws, and say yes that's probably been beneficial and done some good. However the vast majority have had negative effects on the economy and businesses, removed or restricted peoples rights they had previously.

You could conclude from this, we have excessive and arbitrary policy-shaping and law-making, largely driven by the colossal bureaucratic and technocratic nightmare of a Franco-German institution that is the EU. Where the shady and largely unaccountable EU Commission churns out endless Directives and regulatory laws upon peoples who never elected to be in it, and never get any say on any issues.
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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Why is it on here folk comment about statements nobody has ever made ??? What on earth has telling me a 1000w motor is not 4 x as powerful as a 250 got to do with this thread..???
.
because you do not use the 1000W label in the correct context.
There is nothing illegal about selling or buying 1000W kits. The 1000W label is not defined in the same way that e-bike manufacturers define 250W to get their bikes through EN15194.
The so called 1000W kits refer to the 48V 22A specs that they sell. It is meaningless for the purpose of certification, therefore irrelevant. What makes them road illegal is the lack of EN15194 labelling. The same applies to the 500W BBS02.
Some distributors solve the problem by affixing their own 250W label to these 36V 25A or 48V 18A kits.
You need to separate the issues of certification and derestriction from the electrical characteristics to make sense to these things.
 
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Mar 9, 2016
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Bub
because you do not use the 1000W in the correct context.
There is nothing illegal about selling or buying 1000W kits. The 1000W label is not defined in the same way that e-bike manufacturers define 250W to get their bikes through EN15194.
The so called 1000W kits refer to the 48V 22A specs that they sell. It is meaningless for the purpose of certification, therefore irrelevant. What makes them illegal is the lack of EN15194 labelling. The same applies to the 500W BBS02.
Some distributors even affix their own 250W label to these 36V 25A or 48V 18A kits.
You need to separate the issue of certification and derestriction from the electrical characteristics to make sense to these things.
So are you actually telling me the kit advertised on ebay with a 1000w motor is actually legal ?

Or
Are you telling me the 1000w cyclo city for which buyer has to sign a disclaimer to derestrict it is legal..

Yes we can muddy the water to convince ourselves a 350w motor might be legal..( with your arguments about nominal / and continuous but the fact remains some bikes discussed ( advertised?) on this Forum are blatantly illegal.
Or is the distinction now so confused they are all fine ??wp_ss_20160502_0001.png wp_ss_20160502_0002.png

Both these products openly discussed on forum...Manufacturer of one sponsors site?? ( fromdv8eh)

Are you saying either legal ?
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
no, I did not say that.
Unless there is a 250W label on the kit, the kit is not legal.
That's separate from the 1000W label because the motor is made for 48V 22A.
That's also separate from the de-restriction issue that suppliers like Cyclotricity have to deal with.
Most if not all 250W motors are capable of delivering a fair bit more than 250W mechanical power. You should know that by now after riding up Winnats. Your Bosch CX can easily take 20A from the 36V battery, go figure what it will do with that.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Bu
no, I did not say that.
Unless there is a 250W label on the kit, the kit is not legal.
That's separate from the 1000W label because the motor is made for 48V 22A.
That's also separate from the de-restriction issue that suppliers like Cyclotricity have to deal with.
Most if not all 250W motors are capable of delivering a fair bit more than 250W mechanical power. You should know that by now after riding up Winnats. Your Bosch CX can easily take 20A from the 36V battery, go figure what it will do with that.
But my Yam has passed all tests and is perfectly legal. I did not have to sign a disclaimer to use it.
You are deciding which iis legal, we have a government for that.
Yes yam ( and Bosch) may well have fiddled system, who knows, but that does not justify your stance on blatantly illegal bikes being derestricted by forum members under guidance of other members in open discussions.
All I,m saying is keep it between yourselves. Yes dv8eh can help who he wants , but doing it on here affects us all.( and sends wrong message to everyone about the forum/ legal bike situation)
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
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that's correct, you don't need to sign a disclaimer because you don't derestrict your bike. Customers who bought a 1000W Cyclotricity kit are actually buying a legal 250W kit that can also be derestricted to use the full 1000W.
They need to sign a disclaimer which basically says 'this product has limited warranty, ride it de-restricted only on private land, at your own risks'.
People need to be more aware of the damage they may cause to everyone involved when riding a de-restricted bike on public paths.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
Thanks Morphix,

The safest way to make sure a bike is legal is to ask to see the EN15194 certificate that applies to exactly the model being purchased.

If you remember we at BEBA got into terrible trouble from those here who did not want to get involved. We wrote a good practice charter that we all adhered to and were roundly slated.

Interestingly however most of those who were involved In BEBA are still here and doing well. I supose it shows that commitment in a business pays off!
That's very useful to know about EN15194 certificate. See I've been riding and building e-bikes for 6 years now, and I had no idea it was that simple!

I had no idea the BEBA experienced that resistance or had a good practice charter. Damn. Although Cyclecharge was a member, we were only an associated member, not an industry member..so I never took an active part in BEBA. That's a real shame that such a good initiative met with opposition and got slated for applying good common sense to protect the industry and consumers interests basically.

That is indeed interesting that all the BEBA former members are still doing well and you're right, a commitment to good practices in business goes a very long way, I know this from experience of being in business myself for a long time.

There are unfortunately always going to be dodgy and dubious unethical traders in any industry who engage in misleading advertising and knowingly ignore laws and introduce dangerous products into the marketplace which ruins it for everyone else. That's really why a small but thriving industry like the e-bike industry definitely needs form of trade association body to enable a proper self-regulation approach keep it on the right course and make sure there is the clear perception of consumer safety and legal compliance, with no ambiguity in the marketplace. That doesn't mean sellers of off-road bikes or kits would be alienated from such a body, but just that they would be inclined to act more responsibly and not engage in misleading marketing.

I noticed Wisper bikes, the founder of BEBA is unfortunately no more. I see they went into receivership last year, like so many manufacturers and small businesses are these days sadly. It's just getting impossible to operate in the UK and EU now, with such a ridiculous high universal tax approach on imports, compared to countries like the US and even Gibraltar, which have zero VAT and zero tariffs on e-bikes.

Probably going a little off the thread here, but from a business prospective would be interested to know your thoughts and experiences..

It's crazy really that the UK government has committed to a 40% Co2 reduction in a very unrealistic space of time IMO, and yet has made absolutely no tax or financial concessions for e-bikes businesses such as yours, which are after all, part of the solution to climate change! If significantly more people used e-bikes for shorter journeys than they do cars, it would have a dramatic affect on Co2 reduction. I regularly write to my MP and government Ministers (doesn't do much of course, but you have to at least give them some work to do and go through the motions!) raising these very issues and making comparisons with Gibraltar and the UK, and suggesting that concessions for electric vehicles and e-bikes are long overdue if we're to reach our Co2 target, and compete successfully against Chinese and EU exports.

I briefly entered the e-bike market myself in 2013-2014 when I started converting and selling converted Mezzo folding bicycles with the full blessing (and backing, or so I thought) of the Mezzo directors I met with in 2013. The import tax implications were terrible, and so I began looking at different options. To my astonishment, Gibraltar has no VAT and no import duty on either e-bikes nor batteries, as quite sensibly, they deem these beneficial products. I was actually invited by the Gibraltar government to re-locate to Gibraltar and setup my eMezzo business there! They welcomed me with open arms and I seriously considered it. However at that time, Gibraltar had no port of entry and so it wasn't very economically viable. Now they do have ports of entry though.

Another astonishment revelation to me last month, is that the US also has absolutely no VAT and no import tariffs on the vast majority of consumer goods. It's now cheaper for me to import low-cost goods directly from Asia into the US and export them directly to EU customers via United States Postal Services, and I have teamed up with someone in the US to do just that, and also gain a foothole in the US domestic market. With EU taxes so high, and Royal Mail's continued raising of Airmail rates, the US market is simply impossible to export into it for many many products, unless you have a domestic presence there.
 
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morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
Bu
But my Yam has passed all tests and is perfectly legal. I did not have to sign a disclaimer to use it.
You are deciding which iis legal, we have a government for that.
Yes yam ( and Bosch) may well have fiddled system, who knows, but that does not justify your stance on blatantly illegal bikes being derestricted by forum members under guidance of other members in open discussions.
All I,m saying is keep it between yourselves. Yes dv8eh can help who he wants , but doing it on here affects us all.( and sends wrong message to everyone about the forum/ legal bike situation)
Hear hear. This is precisely the thing that needs shunting off, out of the main general pedelecs discussion forum and into a dedicated off-road e-bikes category.

It's creating very murky waters else and confusing the legality issue. As you say, sends out a misleading message that doing this, is somehow ok and without risks or consequences.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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Hear hear. This is precisely the thing that needs shunting off, out of the main general pedelecs discussion forum and into a dedicated off-road e-bikes category.

It's creating very murky waters else and confusing the legality issue. As you say, sends out a misleading message that doing this, is somehow ok and without risks or consequences.
With the proviso of the off road title been a problem..
Off road is not National Parks, Town Parks etc etc.. Its actually private and enclosed land..( with land owners permission)
National parks allow bicycles/ pedelecs. Not ebikes.
We,ll end up with all the illegal stuff overtaking me around Lady Bower..
But great post otherwise.
Liked Treks last response too.
We might be reaching an agreement rather than impasse.
 

rippedupno1

Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2013
165
117
Dudley,west midlands
"it should not be seen to be condoning, supporting or helping with illegal bikes"
I have two illegal bikes, a Kalkhoff BS10, 350w s-pedelec and a BBS02 750w powered Mosso 29er. If i have a question concerning either of these bikes where am i meant to ask.? I have always tried to post in the correct section of the forum, ie s-pedelec /off road.
Given that the BS10 is freely available to buy from the Kalkhoff main dealer in this country and the BBS02 is also widely available to purchase in the UK and i post in the correct section of the forum, why should i be stopped from doing so?
Ps, not having a pop, just asking a question.
Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
With the proviso of the off road title been a problem..
Off road is not National Parks, Town Parks etc etc.. Its actually private and enclosed land..( with land owners permission)
National parks allow bicycles/ pedelecs. Not ebikes.
We,ll end up with all the illegal stuff overtaking me around Lady Bower..
But great post otherwise.
Liked Treks last response too.
We might be reaching an agreement rather than impasse.
Yes, absolutely, off-road means private land and maybe public areas where you have access to off-road land but where there's no people regularly gathered there, such as farm fields and remote hills etc.

Off-road bikes definitely can be used in may places legally, for example...

On holiday, you might want to use it Australia in the outback, or in America in the desert :D

In the UK, there's probably a lot of niche markets for off-road, private land too..for example airports might want to use them...or large industrial complexes.. and then there's racing events, and things properly organised with public safety considered like flecc discussed.

If people still want to ride them on roads illegally, well that's never going to stop and we shouldn't try to dictate to people what they can or can't do, or keep pestering them on their posts, that's just going to annoy people and cause friction. If the groups are separated, and more emphasis is put on the legality side on the site (especially on the forum categories "which bikes to choose" and "conversions" (I would recommend a sticky post at the top of both "The Law - Keeping it road-legal" and a quick summary..something like that maybe? For the advertisers, I doubt the site will ban off-road kits and bikes advertisers outright and I think that's over the top...why not just have none of those advertisements featured prominently on the main general site or general forum pages of the site. Instead, they could have an "off-road" bikes advert and link, which takes you to a page just for all non-road legal bikes and kits..with some clear legal guidance below that removes any consumer confusion..."Consumer Warning: these products are not legal or safe for use in public places or on UK roads without Vehicle Type registration and a driving license. Click here for more information on the law, or click here to see our road legal advertisers."

If we could reach some amicable agreement or understanding in our little community on this crucial issue, it would be great, fantastic. :)
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
"it should not be seen to be condoning, supporting or helping with illegal bikes"
I have two illegal bikes, a Kalkhoff BS10, 350w s-pedelec and a BBS02 750w powered Mosso 29er. If i have a question concerning either of these bikes where am i meant to ask.? I have always tried to post in the correct section of the forum, ie s-pedelec /off road.
Given that the BS10 is freely available to buy from the Kalkhoff main dealer in this country and the BBS02 is also widely available to purchase in the UK and i post in the correct section of the forum, why should i be stopped from doing so?
Ps, not having a pop, just asking a question.
Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
I see your point... we definitely do not want to alienate or do finger waving at non-legal e-bike owners on this forum. That's not the intention and I think Flud agrees there? Like flecc said, we're not trying to police the forum or create divisions and friction with people.

The best answer to your question of where you can get advice on your off-roader bikes, would be if you had a dedicated category I think, what do you reckon?

Surely that is better all around, because you'd have more people focused there and knowledgeable about higher-powered e-bike building and kits and motors are available, and be able to freely discuss that and their performance...and since there's a lot of safety issues to consider, much more than a regular 250W motor conversion, I think that's quite helpful and important to have that "knowledge base" concentrated into one area rather than just merged into the general e-bikes discussion. As a legal precaution, it might be wise to make that category invite-only perhaps? Given you're probably going to be discussing doing things illegal and maybe posting videos of illegal bikes on public roads which could have legal consequences? Invite-only would be simple.. the forum category is locked to outsiders..and you need to apply to join it, one of the older regulars into off-road could act as moderator and approve new people asking to join?

I'm sure this kind of approach, or something approaching it, would help tremendously with the ongoing problems and tensions we have been seeing emerge...with a clear division and massive difference of opinion between those who do not like seeing discussions on off-road bikes being used illegally in the general forum, and those who don't have a problem with that.

If the two categories are separate there will be no clashes or cross-overs between legal and illegal road use. It will never be an issue. People who are opposed to off-road bikes being on roads, can just stay well away from that category (and will even get told off if they go there and start critical threads!)

And likewise, the general e-bikes category, could have a sticky post at the top saying discussion is limited to road-legal bikes and 250W kits...if you want to discuss high-power e-bike kits, go to the off-road category here.

I would suggest a "light moderation" approach like we have at present.. simple guidelines on how to post what where on the legal v off-road and if anyone crosses over, they're just politely reminded it's strayed off-topic and in the wrong category.

Does anyone see any problem with this? Maybe we can do a vote and put it to the site owner and forum moderator Russ?
 
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greyfox69

Pedelecer
Jul 28, 2015
144
151
66
ST8 North Staffs
Is it me? or is this forum turning into a ego trip/ argument forum. flud has only been on this forum a very short time and it's degenerated into a critical exchange of boring ideas, the best way to treat flud et al is just to ignore their posts completely , if nodody responds to whatever they post,then they will get the message, and we can rescue this site and return it to the informative, friendly site i joined.
Genuine ebike riders like myself would like to return to real forum
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
I'm truly astonished you can make such a statement.
I largely agree, but these things are not under discussion. My comment was in the context of what we are discussing.

Let me just illustrate with just one item from your previous long list:

d) Because we remain EU members, and the EU dictates our laws to us and the EU decides individual e-bike registration and type-approval is needed.

Since that is the only relevant one from a pedelec law making point of view.

Your overall proposition is that the behaviour in this forum could lead to the law being changed to all our disadvantage. I say that is fantasy and this is why:

Ther are a tiny number of threads about illegal e-bikes in this forum. Those threads are unrepresentative of the total membership. In turn the membership at about 8% is unrepresentative of the UK e-biking scene.

The UK in total is only a miniscule part of the EU pedelec scene, and the UK isn't even a full member of the EU.

In these circumstances to think the EU Commission would even consider changing the EU law on pedelecs for all member nations due to small minority behaviour in this forum is pure fantasy. In any case they couldn't even of they wanted to, the other member nations would block the Commission on any such change.

There is precedent. The EU Commission have long wanted to introduce compulsory cycle helmet wearing EU wide but the key member nations have blocked them from doing this. The Netherlands alone with little more than a quarter of the UK population have made the measure impossible.

I won't post again in this thread on this subject since I've wasted far too much time on what is a non-existent issue. I'm confident that what happens in this forum will never bring about any change in the law, our impending loss of independent throttles illustrating that we have no influence on the European e-biking world.
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morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
I largely agree, but these things are not under discussion. My comment was in the context of what we are discussing.

Let me just illustrate with just one item from your long list:

d) Because we remain EU members, and the EU dictates our laws to us and the EU decides individual e-bike registration and type-approval is needed.

Since that is the only relevant one from a pedelec law making point of view.

Your overall proposition is that the behaviour in this forum could lead to the law being changed to all our disadvantage. I say that is fantasy and this is why:

Ther are a tiny number of threads about illegal e-bikes in this forum. Those threads are unrepresentative of the total membership. In turn the membership at about 8% is unrepresentative of the UK e-biking scene.

The UK in total is only a miniscule part of the EU pedelec scene, and the UK isn't even a full member of the EU.

In these circumstances to think the EU Commission would even consider changing the EU law on pedelecs for all member nations due to small minority behaviour in this forum is pure fantasy. In any case they couldn't even of they wanted to, the other member nations would block the Commission on any such change.

There is precedent. The EU Commission have long wanted to introduce compulsory cycle helmet wearing EU wide but the key member nations have blocked them from doing this. The Netherlands alone with little more than a quarter of the UK population have made the measure impossible.

I won't post again in this thread on this subject since I've wasted far too much time on what is a non-existent issue. I'm confident that what happens in this forum will never bring about any change in the law, our impending loss of independent throttles illustrating that we have no influence on the European e-biking world.
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I admit I strayed waaay off topic there, but I was trying to illustrate that far from a relaxed, laid back and tolerant country, the UK is becoming ever more tightly regulated, controlled and a "police-state" government mentality has progressively set in over the last 2-3 decades..to the point where the police are now into politics and the laws and regulations being continually introduced are starting to have a real impact on our basic human rights and our freedoms as consumers are constantly under threat.

You gave the impression that it's not the case, and nothing has changed much... but I was just trying to illustrate how massively I see things have changed, and not for the better.

The point of that really was to show that e-bike regulation would merely be another piece of legislation for a government to pass, a government which clearly has a long history of it and seems to want to control society and what people do, by giving the police ever more powers, and regulating anything and everything, because "it's in the public interest" to do so.
 
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