Looking to buy Specialised Turbo. Can i have it re flashed?

[Fordulike]

You are correct.....we need a new section entitled 'those who want to use illegal dongled or S-class bikes in the U.K.'

Now you're just being childish.

At the end of the day, whatever topics get talked about in this forum, it still brings potential custom to the traders who advertise here.

Someone might have been directed to this site after a Google search on 'where can I buy a fast electric bike'.

They may or may not already know the legalities of electric bikes, but it would be better for you to concentrate posts on other positive aspects of your bikes, than to go the legal/illegal route. Convince them they don't need a fast bike to get the fun factor.

I'll be honest, I am seriously considering swapping my BBS02 next year, for a totally legal ready built bike. The reason being, that my off-road (tongue in cheek) skills have advanced to the stage of needing a bike with torque sensing PAS and better components.

I had singled out a couple of bikes from Haibike and KTM, but unfortunately my selection has dropped to just the Haibike, for reasons members can probably figure out.

Sad, but true

 

[Kudoscycles]

Now you're just being childish.

At the end of the day, whatever topics get talked about in this forum, it still brings potential custom to the traders who advertise here.

Someone might have been directed to this site after a Google search on 'where can I buy a fast electric bike'.

They may or may not already know the legalities of electric bikes, but it would be better for you to concentrate posts on other positive aspects of your bikes, than to go the legal/illegal route. Convince them they don't need a fast bike to get the fun factor.

I'll be honest, I am seriously considering swapping my BBS02 next year, for a totally legal ready built bike. The reason being, that my off-road (tongue in cheek) skills have advanced to the stage of needing a bike with torque sensing PAS and better components.

I had singled out a couple of bikes from Haibike and KTM, but unfortunately my selection has dropped to just the Haibike, for reasons members can probably figure out.

Sad, but true

Do you mean that the Haibike is easier to 'dongle' than the KTM.? We were having a conversation at the NEC on the Haibike stand about dongles and the manager of the electric transport shop in Cambridge said that they fit more dongles to KTM than Haibike.....
KudosDave

 

[RobF]

Do you mean that the Haibike is easier to 'dongle' than the KTM.? We were having a conversation at the NEC on the Haibike stand about dongles and the manager of the electric transport shop in Cambridge said that they fit more dongles to KTM than Haibike.....
KudosDave

I expect he means buying a KTM is not an attractive prospect because of Col's posts on here and general attitude.

A reasonable warranty claim on a non-dongle effected part of a KTM bike will be rejected by the sound of it.

There might be a fighting chance of getting such a claim paid on another make of bike.

 

[Fordulike]

Do you mean that the Haibike is easier to 'dongle' than the KTM.? We were having a conversation at the NEC on the Haibike stand about dongles and the manager of the electric transport shop in Cambridge said that they fit more dongles to KTM than Haibike.....
KudosDave

No dongles, totally standard. I would never get past 15mph on the areas I ride and feel that better power control (torque sensor) and far superior bike components would suit me better.

... and yes, Rob wins the prize

 

[RobF]

[QUOTE="Fordulike, post: 282243, member: 3287"

... and yes, Rob wins the prize [/QUOTE]

Ta.

Let me know if you want a whirl on my Rose - it would give you a good idea of the ride of a Bosch bike.

 

[Fordulike]

Let me know if you want a whirl on my Rose - it would give you a good idea of the ride of a Bosch bike.

Thank goodness you ended that with confirmation it's your bike you're talking about.

I may well take you up on that offer when the weather's not so miserable.
Thanks Rob

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Never really understood this. My pedelec assists to 25kph, an spedelec assists to 45kph... and both can easily reach 50kph or above unassisted going downhill, for example. Therefore, both need brakes that don't crumble to dust when slowing down from more than 50kph so why would spedelecs need better brakes?

This is a genuine question to benefit my knowledge - I don't have an axe to grind in this debate as I'll make my own informed decisions.

Also, my pedelec has XT brakes which are better than some brakes on spedelecs for whatever that's worth...

I can't argue with any of that... and I'm not saying an sPedelec "needs" better brakes... all I'm saying is that to be classed as a sPedelec the eBike does need different brakes - I probably shouldn't have used the phrase better". I've raced MTB Downhill offroad in the wet at World Championship level and used standard Shimano mountain bike brakes. I've also raced legally on the road on top end road bikes with Carbon wheels which have shockingly poor stopping power. However as I'm sure many many of you will appreciate, law and common sense are not always that closely linked.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Makes me wonder with all Col / KTM's postings how he justifies showing them at the NEC with UK prices displayed then.

At least a dongled bike becomes instantly 100% legal just by removing the dongle. Can't see the s-pedelecs / 350w eMTBs bikes being legal anywhere if we accept his arguments.

We take an sPedelec to the NEC so we can have a conversation about it, and they can legally be sold (unlike dongled bikes, which can't legally be sold). However we've taken the moral stand point that we'll only sell an sPedelec if someone can prove they can use it legally... so far 0 sales.

 

[soundwave]

ill get 1 when i need a new bike

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

John,

The waiver, while a bit over dramatic, was not daft.

As I said, possession/sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

The waiver, presumably saying the buyer would not use the bike illegally, does offer the dealer extra protection.

Not that the dealer needs it.

He Rob... I know I just posted that this was incorrect and I see you weren't happy with that... so hopefully I can explain below why I said what I did,

The waiver, while a bit over dramatic, was not daft.

A waiver is a bit daft - depending on the wording, for both parties as neither would really be protected by it. They generally aren't worth the paper they are written on, unless written by a solicitor, which I don't this customer or the bike should would be prepared to do.

As I said, possession/sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

Possession isn't but sale of a modded bike is very much illegal because the mod (in this case a dongle) removes its classification as a bicycle, so its no longer CE certified, so can't legally be sold.

The waiver, presumably saying the buyer would not use the bike illegally, does offer the dealer extra protection.

Not that the dealer needs it.

No it doesn't because the dealer will have sold an illegal product, so as clearly started in trading standard laws, the dealer, would not be protected - and they do VERY much need to be worried if they are selling dongled bikes. Which is why Specialised, Cube, us and since the weekend Haibike and I suspect Scott by the end of the week won't let dealers sell dongled bikes.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/product-liability-and-safety-law

 

[RobF]

Colin,

The sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

It is no longer a legal bike, and cannot be sold as such, but it can be sold as an undescribed item, or even a work of modern art.

Sounds stupid, but you will know some collectors do hang vintage bikes on a wall, rather than ride them.

I fully accept that won't happen in this case, but it isn't up to the retailer to nanny the customer, partly because the retailer can't control what the customer does with the item.

The sale of a knife to an adult does not become illegal if the adult later stabs someone with it.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

ill get 1 when i need a new bike

Why don't you just buy one of these?

http://www.ktmfreeride-e.com/en

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Colin,

The sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

It is no longer a legal bike, and cannot be sold as such, but it can be sold as an undescribed item, or even a work of modern art.

Sounds stupid, but you will know some collectors do hang vintage bikes on a wall, rather than ride them.

I fully accept that won't happen in this case, but it isn't up to the retailer to nanny the customer, partly because the retailer can't control what the customer does with the item.

The sale of a knife to an adult does not become illegal if the adult later stabs someone with it.

What are you basing this assumption on? Why don't you speak to Trading Standards and ask them if selling a bicycle that doesn't have a CE Certificate in the UK is illegal.... because it is! Do you really think the ... "its not a bicycle its a work of art", line works in law? Because it doesn't.

If you sell a bicycle, and its not CE Certified... you're breaking the law, and a liable to a whole load of risks.

 

[trex]

don't you over dramatize a bit? the bike is CE marked, the dongle is CE marked and made for the bike. Fitting the dongle to the bike does not automatically void both CE labels.

 

[soundwave]

Why don't you just buy one of these?

http://www.ktmfreeride-e.com/en

lol no thanks

 

[RobF]

I agree the modded bike cannot be legally sold as a bicycle.

But it can be sold as an item, there is nothing to prevent that.

All the legalities of which you speak relate to the use of the item, not its sale.

If the customer only uses the bike to prop open the kitchen door, then no offence is committed by anyone.

You need to grasp the difference between sale and use - they are two entirely different things.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

don't you over dramatize a bit? the bike is CE marked, the dongle is CE marked and made for the bike. Fitting the dongle to the bike does not automatically void both CE labels.

It does... thats exactly the point. We've checked. I'm not over dramatising, I'm simply presenting facts.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I agree the modded bike cannot be legally sold as a bicycle.

But it can be sold as an item, there is nothing to prevent that.

All the legalities of which you speak relate to the use of the item, not its sale.

If the customer only uses the bike to prop open the kitchen door, then no offence is committed by anyone.

You need to grasp the difference between sale and use - they are two entirely different things.

Yes, sale and use are different things... but selling an eBike with a dongle fitted, is like it or not, I'm afraid breaking trading standards laws.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Why don't you just buy one of these?

http://www.ktmfreeride-e.com/en

lol no thanks

Serious question.... why not?

 

[soundwave]

its a motor bike lol, n no pedals and its 100kg