Looking for a decent ebike to buy, on a bit of a 'budget'

[Mr. B Ikeman]

FIrst off, I'll state that the highest I'll go is £1700, maybe £2k if it was an absolute bargain bike down from more than double that.
Though I'd rather stay under 1.5k

Reason I'm looking for an ebike is because I need to build up strength in my legs, I live in a fairly hilly area >20 degree inclines and want to get out to some good cycling spots. Having an electric assist would make it less torturous getting around.

I've been looking at the cyclotricity kits (full frame, 70%) and have been asking about one specific model, their high end full suspension 1500W model (high wattage for off road use), however when I asked for info on assembly (ie do I need to size the chain, will I need to use a chain splitter, does it come with a pre-sized chain and quick link) they just directed me to their PDF, which doesn't cover that. I'd also asked in the same email for a set of specs on the forks, brakes and rear shocks, derailleur and shifters as their site just lists "Air shocks" "Hydraulic brakes" which isn't exactly a heap of information, they never provided that info which makes me feel they're being a bit cagey. Am I wrong?

Cyclotricity seem to be the best I've found since they check two of the main boxes I need them to; throttle and high wattage motors, for use on offroad/private land then the option to set a road legal 250W lockout.

Hub drive seems to be my only option, from my limited knowledge, for an ebike that can do throttle + PAS, even retrofitting a throttle to a mid drive sounds like it may be impossible on higher end motors as the ESC is built into the motor itself, so can't really be changed out to accept a throttle as well as PAS.

If you could give me a list of options I'd have in my budget range that fit the criteria of:
Has throttle + PAS
Can climb inclines of 20-25 degrees
Is a good bike overall, or not absolutely awful

I'd appreciate it. I've been out of cycling for about 8 years now and this is my first foray into ebikes.

Thanks

 

[saneagle]

Thanks. I assume no commercial product exists where you can just plug in a throttle and PAS sensor in then feed the output to the throttle wire on the bike and have it so the throttle only works when the PAS sensor is registering pedalling? That would allow me to choose the amount of motor power very finely with the throttle, though should still be EAPC legal as I would just be setting the assistance amount and the throttle couldn't work (unless it was set up to work only as a walk assist) unless the pedals are being used. Seems like it would be a really useful piece of kit, the throttle on the bike allows for fairly fine adjustment and isn't as stop/go as simple pedal assist is.


If not I guess I'll have to test it with a multimeter and logic analyzer, maybe bring the bike round to a mate's place and use his oscilloacope if it's an alalogue signal. If I can get that worked out I can probably use a microcontroller to lock the throttle out until the PAS is activated. Expensive cadance (and especially torque) sensors are probably on par, maybe better than a throttle, though the cheap £15 one I got is an absolute widowmaker.

Feels like the EAPC regs were drafted by someone who has never used either a motorcycle, or ebike and have just come to the assumptive conclusion that throttles are bad because they seem too much like a motor vehicle, changing PAS settings (the LCD on the bike goes from 0 to 5) would require me to take my hand off the bar partially. Whereas a thumb or twist throttle still allows me to have full control and easy reach to the brakes, so having a system that meets the requirements, but is still safe and doesn't require purchasing a torque sensor and the tools to pull out the spindle on my bike is something I'd appreciate, even if I need to make it myself.

PS: Thanks for convincing me to not go for a 1kw+ motor, this geared hub motor definitely helps out and I'm probably getting better exercise too because I don't have a massive weight on the back wheel.

Throttle control is pretty well useless on an electric bicycle. Firstly, the pedalling and bumping while riding prevents fine control. Secondly, all controllers use throttles for speed control, not power control, so you still get aggressive starts. There is a device called a Cycle Analyst that allows you to map a throttle input to a sort of current control, but it's expensive.

You don't need any of that. Speed control controllers are shite. That's what you need to get rid of. KT controllers use current control, which solves all your issues and you don't need to fit a throttle unless you want to use one legally as a power override device.

 

[Nealh]

Just to clarify that which saneagle has touched on in the very last paragraph.
A legal power override device can be a so called thumb switch or twist and go switch( non can be regarded as throttles because they don't feather speed ) .
Uk law /regs state that power must be pedal first/pedal assisted , no speed switch allowed from a standing star.
Once one is moving then an override device can theoretically power one along up to 15.5mph but one may still have to rotate the cranks ( ghost pedalling) to keep moving .
The action is known as zero start and some systems can be set up for this to be the case , thus a fitted speed device not active from a standing start isn't illegal as it won't propel/assist the bike.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Throttle control is pretty well useless on an electric bicycle. Firstly, the pedalling and bumping while riding prevents fine control. Secondly, all controllers use throttles for speed control, not power control, so you still get aggressive starts. There is a device called a Cycle Analyst that allows you to map a throttle input to a sort of current control, but it's expensive.

You don't need any of that. Speed control controllers are shite. That's what you need to get rid of. KT controllers use current control, which solves all your issues and you don't need to fit a throttle unless you want to use one legally as a power override device.

Note: While you're the quoted post, I'm not just responding to you, I'm weighing in on all of the responses so far and I really do appreciate them all.

I'll have to agree to disagree on the a throttle being useless, used to ride motocross and there was plenty more bumping and movement involved than that on a bicycle, even when I did downhill (albeit not to a significant competency level) motocross was always a rougher ride, a throttle allowed for plenty of fine adjustment. Not to mention trials bikes, which also use throttle control and require an insane amount of control over extremely harsh terrain.

It's that fine adjustment of a throttle that I like and the ability to instantly kill any and all power simply by lifting off my thumb. Been riding for just over a fortnight with a throttle and I've been able to make very fine adjustments, even over bad road surfaces (tree roots and the like pushing up pavement, which are pretty bumpy given the cheap suntour forks that can either be locked out, or half way bottomed out) and I'll admit the motor controller I have is probably dogshit and not designed to work (well) with a pedal assist, though I'd wager many (affordable, first time) ebikes are going to similarly skimp out on expensive controllers, making a pedal assist significantly more hazardous than a method of control that has been tried and true, in all conditions, for well over 100 years.


It really feels like some parliamentary type has had the "No throttles" law passed simply because that makes ebikes seem too similar to a motorbike in their head and has, at best, maybe been given a go on an extremely expensive high end ebike with an excellent pedal assist controller and not anything that would be described as entry level with a super sketchy pedal assist.

This isn't to say that I don't want to abide by EAPC laws, so a KT controller that can give power in the form of walk assist (3.7mph) for setting off then as I start pedalling and only unlocking the throttle when I'm pedalling is likely what I'll buy. That would be legal, right? Start off on the walk assist as I begin to pedal so there's no lag time between setting off and getting power to the motor.


As for how I ride, I don't do any ghost pedalling, I've been doing 6-12 mile rides daily and any time I'm pedalling I'm putting force onto the pedals. The motor does struggle on some of the hills even when I'm pedalling, though down-shifting helps with that. I'll only really use full throttle on hills and will need to pedal to supplement that, though the steeper inclines feel more like light slopes, only other time I use the throttle is when I'm a bit out of breath and need to be cycling at about 10 mph to stay cool, I'll still be pedalling, but not as hard, ie sitting down as opposed to standing and pedalling. Got the bike for a reason, that reason being I need to build up strength I my legs, would be pointless for me to want the motor to do all the work. Though as I've said, I live in an area with particularly brutal hills and I want to get out to good cycling spots, then get back. Given the miles I've been able to cover, over hilly terrain this motor should about do it, though swapping out the battery, controller and maybe getting a 250 watt motor if it produces more torque and less speed (I've already set the limit down to 15.5) are things I'm planning to do.

PS:
Saw that the government was given a chance to change their mind on it via a consultation (though I'd say the answers to a consultation are always pre-assigned, it was always going to be a no) and they shot that down. Kind of conflicts with their reqiests for net zero, better public health and getting people with mobility related disabilities more active.

 

[saneagle]

I'll have to agree to disagree on the a throttle being useless, used to ride motocross and there was plenty more bumping and movement involved than that on a bicycle, even when I did downhill (albeit not to a significant competency level) motocross was always a rougher ride, a throttle allowed for plenty of fine adjustment. Not to mention trials bikes, which also use throttle control and require an insane amount of control over extremely harsh terrain.

It's that fine adjustment of a throttle that I like and the ability to instantly kill any and all power simply by lifting off my thumb. Been riding for just over a fortnight with a throttle and I've been able to make very fine adjustments, even over bad road surfaces (tree roots and the like pushing up pavement, which are pretty bumpy given the cheap suntour forks that can either be locked out, or half way bottomed out) and I'll admit the motor controller I have is probably dogshit and not designed to work (well) with a pedal assist, though I'd wager many (affordable, first time) ebikes are going to similarly skimp out on expensive controllers, making a pedal assist significantly more hazardous than a method of control that has been tried and true, in all conditions, for well over 100 years.

I've been an ardent motorcyclist for more than 50 years. I know how motorbike throttles work. Ebike ones are different. You cannot get fine control on them, and it becomes a real problem when you have a powerful ebike. That's why devices like the Cycle Analyst became popular along with various other throttle taming devices.

Also, ebike throttles are all made of cheap plastic and they break very easily when you hit a bump while holding full throttle, leaving you unable to stop the motor from running at half speed unless you have reliable brake switches.

Lastly, throttles affect efficiency because whenever you increase it, it gives instant maximum power, which is wasteful, and the action of pedalling and the bumps cause you to be constantly moving the throttle position up and down. That's where bicycle throttle operation is different to motorbikes. When you press a pedal down, you have to pull on the handlebar at the same time to get the force. You don't do that on a motorbike - not even trials ones.

Many ebike controllers have cruise control, which has to be enabled in the settings, then, to activate it, you have to hold the throttle in the position of your intended cruise speed for 5 seconds, which is just about impossible if ever you try it, except for maximum, where you can hold it against the stop, as long as you don't hit a bump and break it in the meantime.

In the past when nobody cared and pedal assist functions were useless, to avoid all those issues, I used to make my own cruise controls for the throttles using a second throttle without a spring in parallel, a potentiometer in parallel with the throttle, or a friction device attached to the throttle. I wouldn't have gone to all that trouble if you could get satisfactory control of an ebike by normal throttle operation.

Thirteen years ago:

Home made Cruise Control

I had a bell that was not very good, so I cut the bell off and used the bracket that goes around the handle bar. I drilled a hole in a small piece of plastic and screwed it in from the top rather than how it was through the bottom. I then put the bell bracket on after the throttle and then...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[sjpt]

Ebike ones are different. You cannot get fine control on them ...
ebike throttles are all made of cheap plastic ...
Lastly, throttles affect efficiency because whenever you increase it, it gives instant maximum power,

Is there any good reason why ebike 'throttles' are different? (I'll stick to the term throttle.)
Your arguments above are more about the limitations of the implementation of todays 'throttles' and controllers, rather than the unsuitability of ebike throttles.

You mention devices such as Cycle Analyst and your modified bell, but why are they necessary? Why not build a robust throttle and make the controller interpret the throttle input as current control? eg
current = selectedCurrent + throttle * (maxCurrent - selectedCurrent)
where selectedCurrent is the current the controller would give with given settings and no throttle attached,
throttle ranges from 0 to 1, and maxCurrent is the max current the controller can provide.

Probably a slightly more subtle formula with some appropriate non-linearities.

Given everything else a controller does, doing that seems a very easy extra; but you know much more than I do about the implementation of today's controllers so I await you clarifications.

 

[saneagle]

Is there any good reason why ebike 'throttles' are different? (I'll stick to the term throttle.)
Your arguments above are more about the limitations of the implementation of todays 'throttles' and controllers, rather than the unsuitability of ebike throttles.

You mention devices such as Cycle Analyst and your modified bell, but why are they necessary? Why not build a robust throttle and make the controller interpret the throttle input as current control? eg
current = selectedCurrent + throttle * (maxCurrent - selectedCurrent)
where selectedCurrent is the current the controller would give with given settings and no throttle attached,
throttle ranges from 0 to 1, and maxCurrent is the max current the controller can provide.

Probably a slightly more subtle formula with some appropriate non-linearities.

Given everything else a controller does, doing that seems a very easy extra; but you know much more than I do about the implementation of today's controllers so I await you clarifications.

Good suggestions. Unfortunately, manufacturers don't have the same ideas. Actually, the change to thumb throttles has made some improvement since the force through your arms goes to the grip, which is what breaks the twist type. The lever type only break when you drop the bike. There are controllers that can map the throttle to power control, but they're hellishly expensive.

Throttles and speed control pedal assists work fine on low powered bikes, where you hardly notice whether the power is on or off, but the higher the power the system gives, the worse it gets. When you have a motor with 90NM torque it can become a bucking bronco in the low gears or at startup.

Manufacturers like Bosch and Yamaha devoted a lot of effort to program their power algorithms to avoid that. Cheap Chinese hub-motor systems are a long way behind. there are a few OEMs using current control pedal assist, but the most you might get from the best of the rest is a ramp on the pedal assist power.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Some interesting posts, some things I'm not understanding though.
"Throttles instantly give maximum power when increased"
Can you explain more? I'm using a thumb throttle and there's a very noticible difference between rolling my thumb over it slightly (holding the grips and rolling my thumb seems to give far more precise control than pushing it in, as I can easily lock my thumb up, basically treating it almost like a twist throttle and relying on the elasticity in my palms/gloves to allow for it to be turned as well as some flexibility in my thumb) and shoving the throttle down into the end stop. The controller/LCD also shows it ramping up and this is especially noticible when reaching about 14mph by pedalling and pushing in the throttle, even at max throttle it'll only give a tiny bit of power, but if I set the controller to 20mph or allow some speed to bleed off, it'll immediately allow the bike to floor it.
Is this more of a current instead of voltage control thing? I'd have to assume so, as I doubt the ESC and LCD I have are anywhere near high end.

Making a good (thumb) throttle can't be that hard. Even if it would need to be home made. 3d print it from carbon/glass reinforced filament, or order a metal 3d print/CNC'd version online, use a magnet and hall sensor. Similar for a twist throttle though it would likely need to be tougher, if my dirt bike throttles could survive plenty of hard landings as well as bike drops (at considerable speed, enough to rip the brake lever clean off, multiple times yet the throttle was always fine, the grips maybe not so much), an ebike throttle could too, even if it meant using a motorcycle (off road) throttle on an ebike and attaching the throttle cable to a potentiometer or hall and magnet setup back where the ESC is. If the ebike market is shite, adapt things from markets that see rougher use.
I mean, I can't be the only one who has thought of this, it's not a complex idea, so is there a huge barrier in the way I'm missing?

As for programmable controllers and ESCs, how on earth are they so expensive? End of the day it'd just firmware that gates some FETs or IGBTs, right? Surely there's got to be some open or semi open source ESC or LCD if the throttle input can be routed through that I can just plug into a PC and program. They were expensive parts a decade ago, though if I can find multi-horsepower inverter drives online at reasonable prices, surely there has to be an equivalent for ebikes.

 

[saneagle]

Some interesting posts, some things I'm not understanding though.
"Throttles instantly give maximum power when increased"
Can you explain more? I'm using a thumb throttle and there's a very noticible difference between rolling my thumb over it slightly (holding the grips and rolling my thumb seems to give far more precise control than pushing it in, as I can easily lock my thumb up, basically treating it almost like a twist throttle and relying on the elasticity in my palms/gloves to allow for it to be turned as well as some flexibility in my thumb) and shoving the throttle down into the end stop. The controller/LCD also shows it ramping up and this is especially noticible when reaching about 14mph by pedalling and pushing in the throttle, even at max throttle it'll only give a tiny bit of power, but if I set the controller to 20mph or allow some speed to bleed off, it'll immediately allow the bike to floor it.
Is this more of a current instead of voltage control thing? I'd have to assume so, as I doubt the ESC and LCD I have are anywhere near high end.

To answer your first question. The average ebike controller uses the throttle as a speed control device. The throttle position relates to a specific rotation speed of the motor. If the motor is above that speed, the power is cut, and if it's below that speed, the controller uses its algorithms to increase power to get to that speed. Not all controllers are the same, but the algorithms in most of the cheap and common ones simply give max power if below and no power if above.

Next, you have to understand how motors work. As soon as they start to turn, they generate power. The voltage they generate is in direct relation to their rotation speed. The voltage is in the opposite direction to your battery voltage and has the effect of reducing it. At a certain speed, the motor generates a voltage equal to the battery voltage, so there is no net voltage and that's the maximum possible speed the motor can turn. Obviously, the actual maximum speed is a bit less than that, since work has to be done to keep spinning the motor.

Your controller allows a maximum current - say 15 amps. When you start up, you get the full battery voltage, which is enough to push 15A to the motor, but at some speed the back emf will reduce the voltage enough that there is no longer enough voltage to push the full 15A. What you get is a flat 15A up to some speed because the controller is limiting the current up to that point, then the current ramps down to zero as you keep going faster because the back emf from the motor is limiting the current in that range.

To put some numbers to it, let's say that you have a typical 36v 260 rpm motor in a 26" wheel. 260 rpm is 20 mph, so at 10 mph the motor would be generating 18v, which leaves a net 18v to provide power to turn the motor. At 15 mph, you'd only have 9v. In other words, when you reach 14mph, it's unlikely that there's enough net voltage to give the maximum current. If you have an indication of power used on your control panel, you can see that the faster you go, the lower it is when demanding full power.

This effect is effectively used to stop the controller from overheating, which is why it's important to have a motor and controller designed for your modal speed. A 15A controller is actually rated at half of that (7A). If it runs at more than 7A for a long time, it'll overheat in theory, but actually it's closer to around 10A. When you're riding around at your modal speed of 12mph to 15mph, you're working in the range where the current has already ramped down if your system is designed correctly. Some people get the brilliant idea to use a fast motor (low KV, which we call a fast wind), but the problem is if it can run up to 30mph and you never go over 15mph, every time you demand max power, you'll get it, but that can overheat both the controller and the motor.

 

[guerney]

It'd be nice to have a big red button on the handlebar which disables the PAS, if followed by a backpedal, so that the right hand (or foot) side pedal is moved to the 12 O'clock position, for that to act as a throttle between 12 O' clock and 6 O' clock - provided there are enough magnets on the PAS disc to calculate angle accurately, 0V to 5V split over 180° degrees should provide quite a fine level of throttle control. To cruise, simply maintain right hand side crank arm angle. Press the big red button again to revert to PAS. I'd like to see how Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) goes with that! Would they disapprove?

 

[saneagle]

It'd be nice to have a big red button on the handlebar which disables the PAS, if followed by a backpedal, so that the right hand (or foot) side pedal is moved to the 12 O'clock position, for that to act as a throttle between 12 O' clock and 6 O' clock - provided there are enough magnets on the PAS disc to calculate angle accurately, 0V to 5V split over 180° degrees should provide quite a fine level of throttle control. To cruise, simply maintain right hand side crank arm angle. Press the big red button again to revert to PAS. I'd like to see how Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) goes with that! Would they disapprove?

I'm thinking that might be achievable with a three pole switch. You'd also need something like an 8 magnet pedal sensor with every other magnet removed, leaving 4 magnets set at positions 45 deg to the sensor when the pedals are vertical so that when you hold the pedals up and down, no magnet lines up with the sensor.

Connect the PAS signal wire to the middle pin and one of the outer ones to the controller's PAS signal input wire. With the switch in one position, the PAS will work like normal. The other pin goes to a the throttle signal input with a capacitor connected to ground and a high value resistor in parallel. The resistor's value to be determined by experiment and is dependent on capacitor value. When you have the switch switched the other way the pulsing PAS signal will charge the capacitor, which would slowly discharge through the resistor. You need a time of about 1 second for the capacitor to discharge below 1v. Because of the slow discharge, the pulsing 5v would be held at close to a constant 5v when pedalling to give maximum throttle. When you stop pedalling with the pedals vertical, the capacitor would discharge to zero through the resistor. If you move the pedals to the 45 deg position, you'd get maximum throttle, which is illegal, but nobody would figure out how it works.

 

[chris_n]

It'd be nice to have a big red button on the handlebar which disables the PAS, if followed by a backpedal, so that the right hand (or foot) side pedal is moved to the 12 O'clock position, for that to act as a throttle between 12 O' clock and 6 O' clock - provided there are enough magnets on the PAS disc to calculate angle accurately, 0V to 5V split over 180° degrees should provide quite a fine level of throttle control. To cruise, simply maintain right hand side crank arm angle. Press the big red button again to revert to PAS. I'd like to see how Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) goes with that! Would they disapprove?

I don't know if this says a lot about the way you guys ride your bikes, but there is no way I am going into a corner or fast bend with the inside pedal at 6 o'clock. I would be forever accelerating or decelerating , catching pedals on the inside of the turn is not fun.

 

[saneagle]

I don't know if this says a lot about the way you guys ride your bikes, but there is no way I am going into a corner or fast bend with the inside pedal at 6 o'clock. I would be forever accelerating or decelerating , catching pedals on the inside of the turn is not fun.

The way i described works with EITHER pedal at 6 O'clock, which is how you want it for going round a tight bend.

 

[chris_n]

The way i described works with EITHER pedal at 6 O'clock, which is how you want it for going round a tight bend.

So what happens in a series of switch backs where you change from side to side regularly.

 

[AndyBike]

The only pedal you want at 6 is the offside pedal. inside pedal in that position is dangerous.
I've made the mistake of going into a(in this instance) a left hand tight bend with the left hand pedal in the 6 o clock position, it hit the ground and , well basically lifted the entire bike up and both wheels disconnected from the ground, and i went on an elbow first road slide.
Nearly ground that elbow to the bone

 

[saneagle]

So what happens in a series of switch backs where you change from side to side regularly.

You switch the middle position, then you can do what you want with the pedals without affecting the motor, or you do what you always do - put one pedal up then the other.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

It'd be nice to have a big red button on the handlebar which disables the PAS, if followed by a backpedal, so that the right hand (or foot) side pedal is moved to the 12 O'clock position, for that to act as a throttle between 12 O' clock and 6 O' clock - provided there are enough magnets on the PAS disc to calculate angle accurately, 0V to 5V split over 180° degrees should provide quite a fine level of throttle control. To cruise, simply maintain right hand side crank arm angle. Press the big red button again to revert to PAS. I'd like to see how Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) goes with that! Would they disapprove?

I wouldn't have it work on the pedals for some of the reasons above. Though if I were building such a system, best way I could see would be through hall effect sensors and a magnet with it's pole flipped for specific pedal angles. Have that run to a microcontroller that sends a voltage to the throttle input and if you backpedal one full revolution into that position (so you'd need 3 hall sensors, one with a reversed pole, unless N/S sensing sensors are a thing), microcontroller counts the number of pulses, sees that the magnet has an opposing pole to what is normal and locks the bike to the current speed that it is going. You could even eliminate the need for opposing poles and have the bike speed locked after 2 full backpedal revolutions. Maybe allow for some additional backpedalling so you can get your pedals lined up for corners, one full revolution forward or back before it disengages. Probably only good for road use though.

Doubt it would be legal though, the laws need relaxed further and it's a pity (but wholly unsurprising) that the recent consultation got shot down. The UK (and other European nations) are dead set on banning everything into 'safety' and have a rather myopic view that, for example, if deaths caused by throttle powered ebikes are now higher than pre-2016, it must be the throttle doing it and not the fact that many people who are already breaking the law, are going to do so in other ways. Given that I've tested a throttle and a bad pedal assist system (which many people may end up getting on entry level ebike kits) I can say I'd never use that pedal assist because I don't want my bike launching me into traffic while I'm turning the pedals back to I can set off at a reasonable speed from lights, I can however, trust a throttle. As I've already said, someone in government was probably handed an extremely expensive ebike and told "This is how pedal assist works" and they voted on having that be the only way an ebike can function, moreover it was likely an MEP, so a person who isn't directly elected. Though in a twist of irony, the UK would have probably never have made EAPCs legal had we left the EU by then.


A course of action (not the best one, the best would be simple deregulation up to a point like they have in the US) I could see would be to make throttles and higher powered motors legal, with a caveat. Simply do a one or two hour course on "How to use an advanced ebike", no need for insurance, no need for a registration number plate on your bike, just a little "If bike is going to crash, take hand/thumb off throttle" card in your pocket.
Want to make it even safer, there's a system used on boats that is cheap, easy to fit and not bulky; a strap which you put around your wrist attached to the engine kill. All it would need to do on an ebike is close a switch (or bridge a circuit) that allows the motor to function.
That could even be combined so that riders without certification would be required to have to have a safety tether, people without it would be recommended to use one, you could even throw it in as a freebie for doing the £50-75 'course' you do, given in bulk a wrist strap and a switch costs next to nothing.

 

[guerney]

Rider effort is required to turn the pedal a small angle to activate assist (throttle), so why wouldn't the newly invented Guerney Pedalling Accelerotorator™ in post #70 be legal?

All existing pedal assist systems are flawed goddammit! Leaves people gasping for throttles. The angle of crank turn to activate assist isn't small enough - for example, smallest angle on my Bafang BBS01B is 30°. However, it wouldn't be safe with pedal assist activating at every tiny foot movement, therefore it'd be nice to have a big red button on the handlebar which makes the controller ready to provide 100% max assist at max controller current after the slightest turn of the crank arms, ramping up to full power, with long motor run-on, while the crank arms continue to rotate, thereby removing the need (for some) of throttles. Ebrakes would be a must, for safety. The rider would have to put in effort to rotate the crank arms by 1°, and assistance would only contunie while the crank arms continue to rotate, so again this would be legal? After easily starting off, possibly uphill, simply press the big red button again to resume normal pedal assist. Guerney's Hypersensitive Throttle By Another Name Pedal Assist™ is invented! Eureka eusmella you stinka! etc.

 

[saneagle]

Rider effort is required to turn the pedal a small angle to activate assist (throttle), so why wouldn't the newly invented Guerney Pedalling Accelerotorator™ in post #70 be legal?

All existing pedal assist systems are flawed goddammit! Leaves people gasping for throttles. The angle of crank turn to activate assist isn't small enough - for example, smallest angle on my Bafang BBS01B is 30°. However, it wouldn't be safe with pedal assist activating at every tiny foot movement, therefore it'd be nice to have a big red button on the handlebar which makes the controller ready to provide 100% max assist at max controller current after the slightest turn of the crank arms, ramping up to full power, with long motor run-on, while the crank arms continue to rotate, thereby removing the need (for some) of throttles. Ebrakes would be a must, for safety. The rider would have to put in effort to rotate the crank arms by 1°, and assistance would only contunie while the crank arms continue to rotate, so again this would be legal? After easily starting off, possibly uphill, simply press the big red button again to resume normal pedal assist. Guerney's Hypersensitive Throttle By Another Name Pedal Assist™ is invented! Eureka eusmella you stinka! etc.

You didn't invent it and you can't copyright it because it's already been invented and produced by Kunteng for their controllers. You can find it on Mirider bikes and others, including my own.

 

[guerney]

You didn't invent it and you can't copyright it because it's already been invented and produced by Kunteng for their controllers. You can find it on Mirider bikes and others, including my own.

Oh come on, it was supposed to be funny, but in retrospect, it really wasn't. Are you saying your bike has a hypersensitive pedal assist mode which starts with a 1° rotation of the cranks, enabled/disabled by a button on the handlebar as described in the post above? People wouldn't be endlessly moaning about throttles, if they had a pedal assist mode which operated like that.

 

[matthewslack]

I wouldn't have it work on the pedals for some of the reasons above. Though if I were building such a system, best way I could see would be through hall effect sensors and a magnet with it's pole flipped for specific pedal angles. Have that run to a microcontroller that sends a voltage to the throttle input and if you backpedal one full revolution into that position (so you'd need 3 hall sensors, one with a reversed pole, unless N/S sensing sensors are a thing), microcontroller counts the number of pulses, sees that the magnet has an opposing pole to what is normal and locks the bike to the current speed that it is going. You could even eliminate the need for opposing poles and have the bike speed locked after 2 full backpedal revolutions. Maybe allow for some additional backpedalling so you can get your pedals lined up for corners, one full revolution forward or back before it disengages. Probably only good for road use though.

Doubt it would be legal though, the laws need relaxed further and it's a pity (but wholly unsurprising) that the recent consultation got shot down. The UK (and other European nations) are dead set on banning everything into 'safety' and have a rather myopic view that, for example, if deaths caused by throttle powered ebikes are now higher than pre-2016, it must be the throttle doing it and not the fact that many people who are already breaking the law, are going to do so in other ways. Given that I've tested a throttle and a bad pedal assist system (which many people may end up getting on entry level ebike kits) I can say I'd never use that pedal assist because I don't want my bike launching me into traffic while I'm turning the pedals back to I can set off at a reasonable speed from lights, I can however, trust a throttle. As I've already said, someone in government was probably handed an extremely expensive ebike and told "This is how pedal assist works" and they voted on having that be the only way an ebike can function, moreover it was likely an MEP, so a person who isn't directly elected. Though in a twist of irony, the UK would have probably never have made EAPCs legal had we left the EU by then.


A course of action (not the best one, the best would be simple deregulation up to a point like they have in the US) I could see would be to make throttles and higher powered motors legal, with a caveat. Simply do a one or two hour course on "How to use an advanced ebike", no need for insurance, no need for a registration number plate on your bike, just a little "If bike is going to crash, take hand/thumb off throttle" card in your pocket.
Want to make it even safer, there's a system used on boats that is cheap, easy to fit and not bulky; a strap which you put around your wrist attached to the engine kill. All it would need to do on an ebike is close a switch (or bridge a circuit) that allows the motor to function.
That could even be combined so that riders without certification would be required to have to have a safety tether, people without it would be recommended to use one, you could even throw it in as a freebie for doing the £50-75 'course' you do, given in bulk a wrist strap and a switch costs next to nothing.

The reasoning is dead simple, and you can have what you want already.

An EAPC is a bicycle, and a bicycle needs the rider to pedal. That's fundamental to the definition: 'Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle'.

You want a very low powered electric motorbike. Well you can have one, but it then becomes in law an LPM: 'Low Power Moped'. And it needs to go through a one time approval process.