Looking for a decent ebike to buy, on a bit of a 'budget'

[Mr. B Ikeman]

FIrst off, I'll state that the highest I'll go is £1700, maybe £2k if it was an absolute bargain bike down from more than double that.
Though I'd rather stay under 1.5k

Reason I'm looking for an ebike is because I need to build up strength in my legs, I live in a fairly hilly area >20 degree inclines and want to get out to some good cycling spots. Having an electric assist would make it less torturous getting around.

I've been looking at the cyclotricity kits (full frame, 70%) and have been asking about one specific model, their high end full suspension 1500W model (high wattage for off road use), however when I asked for info on assembly (ie do I need to size the chain, will I need to use a chain splitter, does it come with a pre-sized chain and quick link) they just directed me to their PDF, which doesn't cover that. I'd also asked in the same email for a set of specs on the forks, brakes and rear shocks, derailleur and shifters as their site just lists "Air shocks" "Hydraulic brakes" which isn't exactly a heap of information, they never provided that info which makes me feel they're being a bit cagey. Am I wrong?

Cyclotricity seem to be the best I've found since they check two of the main boxes I need them to; throttle and high wattage motors, for use on offroad/private land then the option to set a road legal 250W lockout.

Hub drive seems to be my only option, from my limited knowledge, for an ebike that can do throttle + PAS, even retrofitting a throttle to a mid drive sounds like it may be impossible on higher end motors as the ESC is built into the motor itself, so can't really be changed out to accept a throttle as well as PAS.

If you could give me a list of options I'd have in my budget range that fit the criteria of:
Has throttle + PAS
Can climb inclines of 20-25 degrees
Is a good bike overall, or not absolutely awful

I'd appreciate it. I've been out of cycling for about 8 years now and this is my first foray into ebikes.

Thanks

 

[Nealh]

The marketing is a bit false for 1500w , yes 6x power of a 250w hub but that is on a flat tarmac road. Not dirt /mud or hill climbing, it will lack the torque and effiency to run slowly.
Simply it will bog down with lack of torque ability at 48v.
These hubs have a high winding /rpm speed and are designed for fast riding where the terrain is flat given the 48v battery and controller supplied.

 

[thelarkbox]

The marketing is a bit false for 1500w , yes 6x power of a 250w hub but that is on a flat tarmac road. Not dirt /mud or hill climbing, it will lack the torque and effiency to run slowly.
Simply it will bog down with lack of torque ability at 48v.
These hubs have a high winding /rpm speed and are designed for fast riding where the terrain is flat given the 48v battery and controller supplied.

+1 generally speaking the ebike hub motors readily available fall into 2 categories:
Geared hub motors that can be found upto500w perhaps a 750w rating.
Direct drive 750w+ motors, more speed at the cost of torque to climb with.

 

[saneagle]

I've calculated the grade myself, they start at around 16 degrees up to 25 at the steepest.
I live near a lot of mountainous terrain. Not super high mountains, but mountains.
Some of the hills are steep enough that I had no problem keeping up with and overtaking cars on them when I used to cycle. No electricity, just highest gear and a little pedalling.
Of course I made sure I was safe, lights, high vos jacket and gloves (for signalling to turn) and a helmet.



Thanks for the correction. Just measured the rear dropouts on my bike are 10mm wide, 11.5mm deep. Depth measurement may be off as I didn't want to take the back wheel off entirely and use the depth gauge on my calipers, so I used a clear piece of plastic and marked with a sharpie. Then measured that using the step gauge.

I imagine this would require marking the required size, filing down (or using a drill bit with course sandpaper taped on, though I'd rather use a round file, more precise and aluminium is easy enough to file with tool steel) and adding a torque arm to make up for structural losses due to filing off a couple of mm?

Though how would a 14mm shaft fit into dropouts too small for it? I'd imagine it wouldn't fit at all, right?



I wouldn't want "An electric motorbike for the road" as you put it. However I won't be taking this on anything but the simplest dirt trails, either a downhill area (and not a difficult one) that can be accessed by road and then I can return home on it.
I don't want to go flying along at near 50mph. I just want to get up the hills in my area, which are steep, at about 10-15mph.

Other area would be a few miles away and would be paved, mostly flat trails, which I'd be cycling on with no assist and using the battery for getting home.

I've torn ligaments in my knee, so the idea of being able to get home without needing to over-exert it is what I'm going for. This is also the primary reason for wanting something with a throttle and hub drive (mid drive can break chains, I guess I could carry a quick link at all times though) and given that I've torn my PCL and MCL, it's mainly anxiety about being stranded miles away from home, in significant pain with no easy way of getting back if I overdo it with the knee. Which is why an ebike feels perfect. With the injury I have, I'm basically stuck in the house most of the time, being able to get out and about again would be a really good thing. So it's not really "I want to zoom around doing 40mph on the roads" but more "I want to be sure I can get up the hills and into my house if my knee freezes up while I'm out cycling".

With regards to getting caught, as I've said, it doesn't seem enforced here, as the bikes delivery drivers use have throttles and giant hub motors, was in the town today and took a quick glance myself. If the police were going to do a sting, I imagine all they'd need to do is drive up to anywhere that does deliveroo. Of course, I imagine they'd not be too happy with anyone going 20+ in a built up area too.

Though as I've said in a previous post. Dirtbiking along public trails in woods and the like isn't enforced here, unless you're doing something stupid and harassing people walking or riding their horses.

You've got a lot to learn. Firstly, those 1500w motors are no good for steep hills, secondly, you wouldn't want to pedal a bike that has one fitted without power. As I said, their strong point is riding fast along a flattish road. They're not suitable for low-speed on trails, especially with any sort of hill. They're very heavy too, so when you fit one, the bike isn't really like a bike anymore. If I would try one on rides like that, I'd end up with torn ligaments, so it's definitely not going to help you repair yours.

Town by town, the police are turning up with their recovery truck and seizing all the illegal bikes. We have a thread running on it. Read it and see if you feel lucky. They don't give you a second chance, and the big motor gives you nowhere to hide.

The 14mm axle and the 12mm ones have 10mm flats on them to go in the drop-out; however, the larger diameter stops the axle from going in far enough. You should file the drop-outs deeper to re-centralise the wheel, and anything over 250w needs a single torque arm on the brake side and anuthing over 1000w needs one on each side of the axle to prevent the axle spinning out. The problem with the big direct drive motors, like the Cyclotricity is that they apply torque to the axle in both directions, especially if you run with regen. That action works the nuts loose, leading to a twisted motor cable and a blown controller after the wheel spins out.

A 250w motor will give you everything you need. You can climb any hill with minimal effort. Have a look at the Engwe L20 for £999 or L20 Boost

 

[soundwave]

Pardon our interruption...

 

[Peter.Bridge]

About 96 kilos/15 stone, 6'1". Not a light as I used to be and still overweight for my height. Though I was 125-130 (19-20 stone) at one point, not eating terrible food and 30 mins exercising every day knocked that weight off, though I'd have probably stalled out a motorbike in first gear when I was that fat.
I'm very particular about not sharing my location online. However calculating by using google maps must have been incorrect as the gradient is closer to 15 degrees on one of the steeper hills, unless calculating just a single road is throwing this off. There are steeper gradients than this, but less than 25 yards.

Thanks for all the help so far by the way. It is appreciated.

View attachment 62078

Great info, thanks, most geared hubs will cope with that hill with your weight.

Geared hub motors usually come in 3 speed options, :

1) 328 rpm for faster speed on flat terrain and for lighter riders and smaller wheels
2) 260 rpm for mixed
3) 201 rpm for hilly terrain and heavier riders

If you are happy for the motor assist to stop at (the legal) 25 km/h / 15.5 mph and your wheel size is 26" or higher then a 201 rpm motor is the best choice and will give the best hill climbing ability.

A motor running at 48v will be more powerful than a motor running at 36v

The slightly larger, heavier geared hub motors (not direct drive like the one you were considering) tend to be more efficient at lower speeds than the lighter motors, so will be more powerful at lower speeds when climbing (because they are more efficient)

So for maximum hill climbing ability for the heavier riders I would choose a 48v 201 rpm heavier motor. Woosh do a 48v Shengyl dwg22c geared hub motor kit that will steam up those hills all day long for your weight or even quite a bit heavier and steeper.

They also do the Gran Camino e-bike (lots of reviews on these forums) which is 36v

The hill gradient I posted is the famous Carlton Bank in North Yorkshire, I (105kg) get up that with a 26" Bafang g020 48v 260 rpm hub motor

Carlton Bank

Distance 1.2 miles Max Gradient The gradient is variable all the way, at its steepest it is probably around 20-25% Where do you find it? This climb takes you from the village of Carlton three miles…

clevelandwheelers.com

 

[Nealh]

+1 generally speaking the ebike hub motors readily available fall into 2 categories:
Geared hub motors that can be found upto500w perhaps a 750w rating.
Direct drive 750w+ motors, more speed at the cost of torque to climb with.

AKM128 freewheel version is rated as 800w geared hub.
Bar the marked rating the hub is as small or even a tad smaller then 250w marked hubs.

 

[Sturmey]

+1 generally speaking the ebike hub motors readily available fall into 2 categories:
Geared hub motors that can be found upto500w perhaps a 750w rating.
Direct drive 750w+ motors, more speed at the cost of torque to climb with.

I even think it may be useful to go further and divide hub motors into three categories.
1. Direct drive motors. (Heavy)
2. Geared hub motors with single stage reduction e.g. 4.4 : 1 or 5:1 (Light)
3. Geared hub motors with two stage reduction e.g 10.5 : 1 akm 128H @201rpm (very light)

 

[soundwave]

Pardon our interruption...

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Pardon our interruption...

Jokes are funny the first time you tell them.

I even think it may be useful to go further and divide hub motors into three categories.
1. Direct drive motors. (Heavy)
2. Geared hub motors with single stage reduction e.g. 4.4 : 1 or 5:1 (Light)
3. Geared hub motors with two stage reduction e.g 10.5 : 1 akm 128H @201rpm (very light)

AKM128 freewheel version is rated as 800w geared hub.
Bar the marked rating the hub is as small or even a tad smaller then 250w marked hubs.

Great info, thanks, most geared hubs will cope with that hill with your weight.

Geared hub motors usually come in 3 speed options, :

1) 328 rpm for faster speed on flat terrain and for lighter riders and smaller wheels
2) 260 rpm for mixed
3) 201 rpm for hilly terrain and heavier riders

If you are happy for the motor assist to stop at (the legal) 25 km/h / 15.5 mph and your wheel size is 26" or higher then a 201 rpm motor is the best choice and will give the best hill climbing ability.

A motor running at 48v will be more powerful than a motor running at 36v

The slightly larger, heavier geared hub motors (not direct drive like the one you were considering) tend to be more efficient at lower speeds than the lighter motors, so will be more powerful at lower speeds when climbing (because they are more efficient)

So for maximum hill climbing ability for the heavier riders I would choose a 48v 201 rpm heavier motor. Woosh do a 48v Shengyl dwg22c geared hub motor kit that will steam up those hills all day long for your weight or even quite a bit heavier and steeper.

They also do the Gran Camino e-bike (lots of reviews on these forums) which is 36v

The hill gradient I posted is the famous Carlton Bank in North Yorkshire, I (105kg) get up that with a 26" Bafang g020 48v 260 rpm hub motor

Carlton Bank

Distance 1.2 miles Max Gradient The gradient is variable all the way, at its steepest it is probably around 20-25% Where do you find it? This climb takes you from the village of Carlton three miles…

clevelandwheelers.com

This is excellent advice. I really appreciate these recommendations. Looks like a geared hub motor is the right way to go. I'll get to looking and seeing what I can get which is PAS+throttle, or can easily (swapping the ESC and some other parts, or just fooling the cadence sensor with an arduino/pi pico) be converted to PAS+throttle. I'd heard of geared hub motors, weren't sure how big of a thing they were now that mid drive had come along. Maybe I should have done more research, though I can't say enough how much I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. I just want to be sure I can get home after a day out.

On the broader topic of bikes being seized by the police, I can't see how that is at all in the public interest. We already have laws regarding cycling with non-motorized bikes which state where you can and can't cycle (ie cycling on the pavement being illegal unless it's a cycle lane or marked as being for cyclists and pedestrians) so if someone is cycling dangerously, this law can be applied, same with cycling on the road.
If the NHS is so overburdened, ban horses. As I've said, I have family members who own horses and the number of people around them hospitalized because of horses is a very high number. Significantly more than the people around me when I raced dirtbikes.
Though given that half the people in parlaiment own a horse, that law wouldn't go down well.

Regarding the bikes being siezed by the police,

 

[soundwave]

stolen Gloucester town centre giant bafang diy

was taken from his home as the fkn builders left the door open

www.pedelecs.co.uk

bbs hd set at 30a he used it for work for last 3 years all weather until the frame cracked.

that thing with a throttle can nuke me 50m b4 i get up to 35mph going down the gears and there electric.

never been pulled over same as me in over 10 years.

fkn phone zombie wiped me out just walked straight out in front of me.



mines bolted at the knee 12% t1000

 

[thelarkbox]

loosing your bike to a random plod check isnt the biggest risk.
Would you advise anyone you like even a little bit, to hop on a moped for daily use without an mot tax or insurance?
Just like driving a motor vehicle thats dodgy if involved in any sort of incident with a 3rd party, if ridding a dodgy bike you could be found at fault by default and open to all sorts of liabilities without any protection.. Even if you have paid for insurance and misled when asked about motor rating etc.. (They will ask!!) - you could be royally screwed.

Those who take the risk are generally without any assets to loose but if you have a car, mortgage, or any ambitions beware..

 

[soundwave]

loosing your bike to a random plod check isnt the biggest risk.
Would you advise anyone you like even a little bit, to hop on a moped for daily use without an mot tax or insurance?
Just like driving a motor vehicle thats dodgy if involved in any sort of incident with a 3rd party, if ridding a dodgy bike you could be found at fault by default and open to all sorts of liabilities without any protection.. Even if you have paid for insurance and misled when asked about motor rating etc.. (They will ask!!) - you could be royally screwed.

Those who take the risk are generally without any assets to loose but if you have a car, mortgage, or any ambitions beware..

who pays for that then if they all get hacked

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

loosing your bike to a random plod check isnt the biggest risk.
Would you advise anyone you like even a little bit, to hop on a moped for daily use without an mot tax or insurance?
Just like driving a motor vehicle thats dodgy if involved in any sort of incident with a 3rd party, if ridding a dodgy bike you could be found at fault by default and open to all sorts of liabilities without any protection.. Even if you have paid for insurance and misled when asked about motor rating etc.. (They will ask!!) - you could be royally screwed.

Those who take the risk are generally without any assets to loose but if you have a car, mortgage, or any ambitions beware..

While I can agree with the sentiment of liability being an issue, the idea that something with a 1500 watt electric motor is a moped just comes off as silly to me.
I'm sure it comes off as silly to many forum members too, especially if you start running calculations.
For example, 1 British horsepower is just over 745 watts.
A 50cc engine has about 3-9 horsepower at its disposal.
Most mopeds will be 50cc, to hit the younger teen market.
So you're looking at a wattage of >2200 on the low end. Then there's losses due to weight to factor in, that weight also makes it much more dangerous in a crash.

Or to make another comparison in terms of output power, toy RC nitro cars. I had one when I was 13, it was about 2.5cc, which, because the high performance fuel (containing nitromethane) has a monoprolellant in it, have a horsepower of 1+, even with such a tiny engine size.

Of course with such a tiny engine size and not much rotating mass they don't have much torque, though the one I owned would easily hit 30-40mph on tarmac.

So the whole "can only be 250 watts" is highly restrictive. I don't like the ban everything madness here.

Anyway, end of rant. If anyone has a suggestion for something with a throttle enabled geared hub bike, or kit that doesn't take days to build, I'd really appreciate it.
I really just want to get out and about. I'm tired of starting at 4 walls in a country that year by year gets more restrictive on about everything you can possibly do.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

Yes, some people are very strident on here, but I am currently installing a 48v motor kit which has a max current of 20 amps and the motor is certificated and stamped as 250w and is perfectly legal, so in the event of police checking it or an accident and a subsequent investigation, I don't need to worry about that aspect

 

[matthewslack]

While I can agree with the sentiment of liability being an issue, the idea that something with a 1500 watt electric motor is a moped just comes off as silly to me.
I'm sure it comes off as silly to many forum members too, especially if you start running calculations.
For example, 1 British horsepower is just over 745 watts.
A 50cc engine has about 3-9 horsepower at its disposal.
Most mopeds will be 50cc, to hit the younger teen market.
So you're looking at a wattage of >2200 on the low end. Then there's losses due to weight to factor in, that weight also makes it much more dangerous in a crash.

Or to make another comparison in terms of output power, toy RC nitro cars. I had one when I was 13, it was about 2.5cc, which, because the high performance fuel (containing nitromethane) has a monoprolellant in it, have a horsepower of 1+, even with such a tiny engine size.

Of course with such a tiny engine size and not much rotating mass they don't have much torque, though the one I owned would easily hit 30-40mph on tarmac.

So the whole "can only be 250 watts" is highly restrictive. I don't like the ban everything madness here.

Anyway, end of rant. If anyone has a suggestion for something with a throttle enabled geared hub bike, or kit that doesn't take days to build, I'd really appreciate it.
I really just want to get out and about. I'm tired of starting at 4 walls in a country that year by year gets more restrictive on about everything you can possibly do.

What the regulations say and how that is interpreted are two different things. You can legally have quite a bit more power than 250W, BUT it must come out of a motor that is 'rated' at not more than 250W, AND SO MARKED.

You can have a throttle, BUT either it cannot help you above 6km/h, OR you need to be pedalling for it to assist up to 25km/h, OR you need to put your bike through SVA to have a fully acting throttle like a motorbike, up to 25km/h.

You CANNOT have more assisted SPEED than 25km/h.

The above is not 'restriction', it is a substantial 'relaxation' of rules that allow what is still in law a BICYCLE to have a motor.

If you want more, and to be legal, then motorbike is the answer.

If 25km/h will do, then what you want is possible. Just don't ask for help to be illegal.

 

[Nealh]

While I can agree with the sentiment of liability being an issue, the idea that something with a 1500 watt electric motor is a moped just comes off as silly to me.
I'm sure it comes off as silly to many forum members too, especially if you start running calculations.
For example, 1 British horsepower is just over 745 watts.
A 50cc engine has about 3-9 horsepower at its disposal.
Most mopeds will be 50cc, to hit the younger teen market.
So you're looking at a wattage of >2200 on the low end. Then there's losses due to weight to factor in, that weight also makes it much more dangerous in a crash.

Or to make another comparison in terms of output power, toy RC nitro cars. I had one when I was 13, it was about 2.5cc, which, because the high performance fuel (containing nitromethane) has a monoprolellant in it, have a horsepower of 1+, even with such a tiny engine size.

Of course with such a tiny engine size and not much rotating mass they don't have much torque, though the one I owned would easily hit 30-40mph on tarmac.

So the whole "can only be 250 watts" is highly restrictive. I don't like the ban everything madness here.

Anyway, end of rant. If anyone has a suggestion for something with a throttle enabled geared hub bike, or kit that doesn't take days to build, I'd really appreciate it.
I really just want to get out and about. I'm tired of starting at 4 walls in a country that year by year gets more restrictive on about everything you can possibly do.

It isn't just UK law , the EAPC is worldwide in most normal countries with people of decent intellect ( bar USA to name one) , Europe , Japan , Australasia all adopt the 250w 15km/h ruling.
Anything else is a moped , for the most part to be an EAPC is must be pedalled not twist and go and must have a limited assisted speed that is akin to a pedal bike (the 25km/h limit is much above that most people will ride at).

There are always indivivduals like yourself who think the rules don't apply to them or want the rules to be aligned with there minority views.

My 250w rated hubs allow me to ride 160km routes offroad , inc mud gravel inclines , ride on the Southdowns , North downs and any where else between .

 

[thelarkbox]

ALL the Hints are above. For max power capacity buy a 'slow' 36v motor, supply it with power from a 48v battery and control system. KT (Ketung?) brand controllers are popular and topbike kit are a far east seller with a good rep in here.

KT controllers provide ability to configure features without limitations or bars. ie set top speed above 25km/h turn on off pas/throttle.. And come with a range of compatible displays to fit most styles. google for ktlcd manual pdfs..

Off the shelf most ebikes ship with a 13-15a peak output controller, most looking for a bit more oomph will opt for a 15-17a upgrade, afaik circa 20a is about as far as you may want to push over amping and then if running the motor hard be mindful of motor temp and check on occasion,, not as hazardous as checking a cylinder is firring after 10 miles by touching the exhaust ')

Pas and brake sensors are pretty generic, KT controllers cut off power when pedaling stops so some will advocate for no brake sensors, I disagree, and find brake lever cracking a useful way to cut motor power when slowly negotiating obstacles.

When presented with the options for controller connections you can choose waterproof julet plugs/sockets or automotive jst and bullet connectors.. while the former may seem better when/if it comes to fault finding the tiny pins and sockets of julet connectors are a real pita...

One more old woman nag from me too.. Other road users dont expect pushbikes with large lads sat on em to zip about at 20mph+ so even if seen by a motorist they could easily mistake you for a slow bike and judge actions accordingly.


Or Buy a £4-500 amazon special ebike.. spend upto £100 on a new dual voltage 36v/48v kt controller and fit. If you still need more oomph invest in a 48v battery using the same generic hailong sled connection as the bike original .. if you then need a better bike pull the perfect system from the amazon bike and apply to your selection.. would be my buy into ebikes now..

 

[saneagle]

While I can agree with the sentiment of liability being an issue, the idea that something with a 1500 watt electric motor is a moped just comes off as silly to me.
I'm sure it comes off as silly to many forum members too, especially if you start running calculations.
For example, 1 British horsepower is just over 745 watts.
A 50cc engine has about 3-9 horsepower at its disposal.
Most mopeds will be 50cc, to hit the younger teen market.
So you're looking at a wattage of >2200 on the low end. Then there's losses due to weight to factor in, that weight also makes it much more dangerous in a crash.

Or to make another comparison in terms of output power, toy RC nitro cars. I had one when I was 13, it was about 2.5cc, which, because the high performance fuel (containing nitromethane) has a monoprolellant in it, have a horsepower of 1+, even with such a tiny engine size.

Of course with such a tiny engine size and not much rotating mass they don't have much torque, though the one I owned would easily hit 30-40mph on tarmac.

So the whole "can only be 250 watts" is highly restrictive. I don't like the ban everything madness here.

Anyway, end of rant. If anyone has a suggestion for something with a throttle enabled geared hub bike, or kit that doesn't take days to build, I'd really appreciate it.
I really just want to get out and about. I'm tired of starting at 4 walls in a country that year by year gets more restrictive on about everything you can possibly do.

1500w is the rated power, not the actual power. Running with a typical 1500w (rated, 3KW maximum) controller, the motor would produce about the same power as a typical 50cc moped.

 

[Nealh]

One has to know the affect that an overvolted 36v motor does compared to a 48v one already wound for a certain rpm . If one wants 201rpm then one has to buy 48v motor already wound for 201rpm as a 36v 201rpm motor speed will increase by 33%, giving 267rpm or a 270rpm motor if round up.
Proportionately the torque will also increase but wouldn't match that of a correctly wound 48v motor.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Thanks for all of the responses so far.
I've found used converted bike online, looks to be in good condition from the pics. Price isn't too bad either at £550 for the bike, meaning I'd have money to spend on a new battery, controller, spares and so on.
Has an AKM350 kit on it, 36V, 350W geared hub motor.

Would this be suitable for my needs; as I've said, I just want more range than a traditional bicycle can afford me and at least some assurance that if I overdo it, I can get back to my place.

One more old woman nag from me too.. Other road users dont expect pushbikes with large lads sat on em to zip about at 20mph+ so even if seen by a motorist they could easily mistake you for a slow bike and judge actions accordingly.

I'd quote the entire post, though I'm trying to keep the thread easy to follow. It gives a lot of excellent advice. One thing I will say however, is that in my experience, some drivers just seem to not care regardless. Long before ebikes were a thing I nearly got killed, twice, by two different drivers in the same spot because they didn't think that someone could cycle at 30+mph, it was a 40 zone and I'd regularly overtake (not undertake) cars in the inside lane. However cars would usually chance it and try and pull out in front of me. First time it happened it was dry and the brakes stopped me, second time it was raining and the bike slid out from under me, luckily I didn't have traffic behind me to run me over. Driver who tried to pull out just drove off like nothing happened.
Was wearing hi-vis and using lights, it wasn't a blind junction either, both drivers definitely saw me and decided to chance it.