Looking for a decent ebike to buy, on a bit of a 'budget'

[Mr. B Ikeman]

FIrst off, I'll state that the highest I'll go is £1700, maybe £2k if it was an absolute bargain bike down from more than double that.
Though I'd rather stay under 1.5k

Reason I'm looking for an ebike is because I need to build up strength in my legs, I live in a fairly hilly area >20 degree inclines and want to get out to some good cycling spots. Having an electric assist would make it less torturous getting around.

I've been looking at the cyclotricity kits (full frame, 70%) and have been asking about one specific model, their high end full suspension 1500W model (high wattage for off road use), however when I asked for info on assembly (ie do I need to size the chain, will I need to use a chain splitter, does it come with a pre-sized chain and quick link) they just directed me to their PDF, which doesn't cover that. I'd also asked in the same email for a set of specs on the forks, brakes and rear shocks, derailleur and shifters as their site just lists "Air shocks" "Hydraulic brakes" which isn't exactly a heap of information, they never provided that info which makes me feel they're being a bit cagey. Am I wrong?

Cyclotricity seem to be the best I've found since they check two of the main boxes I need them to; throttle and high wattage motors, for use on offroad/private land then the option to set a road legal 250W lockout.

Hub drive seems to be my only option, from my limited knowledge, for an ebike that can do throttle + PAS, even retrofitting a throttle to a mid drive sounds like it may be impossible on higher end motors as the ESC is built into the motor itself, so can't really be changed out to accept a throttle as well as PAS.

If you could give me a list of options I'd have in my budget range that fit the criteria of:
Has throttle + PAS
Can climb inclines of 20-25 degrees
Is a good bike overall, or not absolutely awful

I'd appreciate it. I've been out of cycling for about 8 years now and this is my first foray into ebikes.

Thanks

 

[Nealh]

I haven’t yet published this video on my channel, but I’m due to publish the review in a few hours but the link will work to access the content.

The bike below, retails for under £500 and goes up to 22mph of speed (when you remove the restriction). It also folds up.

Only downside, it’s rather small for larger riders, like myself but perfect budget ebike.


iSCOOTER U4 Review - Electric Bike UNDER £500?!

Another moped review , the bike is a moped 22mph and 500w rated motor.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Some people just don't get it .
The concession for EAPC's is that they are limited in power and how that power is activated, to be as near as possible to a non assisted push bike .
If folks think they can out put more power then a 250w EAPC then they don't need an EAPC.

If one wants a moped then simply buy one and register and pay the insurance required for a motor vehicle.

Another moped review , the bike is a moped 22mph and 500w rated motor.

This is the problem with many online communities, especially UK ones, people are fixated on fhe current laws and fail to see how further changes to the law in the form of relaxation of laws could be beneficial.
I've already made the argument that relaxing the laws to throttle and higher wattage motors would open up cycling to a wider variety of individuals, giving some significant health (both physical and mental) benefits.
As for EU directives, its because of the EU (and the UK diligently copying them) that I have to spend extra time vacuuming the house because apparently a vacuum cleaner with a wattage above 900 watts isnt suitable for home use, somehow spending twice as long doing something is more energy efficient, I'm guessing whoever voted on that directive had never heard of or understood a kilowatt hour. So, using that one example (just because its a recent one for me) these directives rarely make sense and are often voted on by people who have no idea about what theyre doing.

I've not seen any arguments about why a motor over 250W 'isnt needed' 750W 72V motors seem to be well liked in places where they are legal, by cyclists. Same with 'throttles' yet I've given an example of how they can be safer than pedal assist systems.
Not all laws are well thought out or make sense. It seems to be a very specific thing to the UK where people defend laws rather than demanding change when a law either isn't fit for purpose, or causes more harm than good, or they simply accept it as the new ststus quo and pray the agreement isn't altered further.

/rant

 

[soundwave]

if you think my bosch motor is only 250w then you live in lala land

any epac can have a motor as powerful as it needs to be my bosch cx is more like 900w otherwise it would not go up anything steep at all and it also has a 20A motor controller.

it wont go up hills faster dongle or not.

i smoke weed and drink hi power cider and can hit 40mph on the flat do the maths the power isn't coming from my legs 15-20% at most as have the bosch app

as long as the motor cuts power at 15mph and does not assist anymore the power of the motor does not matter.

 

[guerney]

Would probably be safer to get a gear on your cassette that just isn't attached to the wheel. Gear with a bearing before the splines/threads. That way you could pedal forwards with almost no effort (probably less than backpedalling), a tiny bit of dirt in your drivetrain isn't going to derail the chain and you're not going to have to rely on ebrakes to stop the bike flying off if you adjust the pedals while stopped. You would need to get that freewheeling (in either direction) gear custom machined, though cheap online-order CNC out of mild steel should probably suffice as it's not going to actually see much force.
You would probably have to sacrifice a gear on your cassette though unless there's enough room to sneak an extra on.

Cool! I've just thought of two more ways to make pedal assist activation easier, plus another gizmo I'm calling Guerney's I Can't Believe It's Not a Throttle™. I must stop thinking about this stuff, because I don't actually need a throttle. How the hell speed based controller controlled hub motored ebikers cope, I will never know.

 

[soundwave]

uder epac it states any changes to the controllers setting ie amps volts and speed if they can be changed is classed as a off road switch or mode a user can set them self.

my bike is can bus locked there is no way to change anything bar a rip off dongle to remove the speed limit.

but none of this has been tested in court.

plod pulls you over sees a throttle lifts up the back wheel and sees it going 28mph its a motor bike.

then if you cant insure it you wont get it back.

cid raided my house about 4 years ago and said you mind not smoking that while we are here i said no because you raided me put ur face masks back on.

is that weed! yep wanna a puff

 

[matthewslack]

Trouble is, given 750W and throttle, and maybe 20+mph whilst we're at it, they will still get ridden on pavements and cycle paths! Such machines may be well liked by their users, but they are not friendly to anyone else.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Trouble is, given 750W and throttle, and maybe 20+mph whilst we're at it, they will still get ridden on pavements and cycle paths! Such machines may be well liked by their users, but they are not friendly to anyone else.

Well, that's more of a people problem and not the fault of the bike.
Any time I'm riding on a cycle path and see a pedestrian i assume saod pedestrian is going to do something unpredictable, so I slow down to the point i can stop the bike in under 2 metres. . Same for blind corners.

Regardless of speed or wattage, or the bike even being electric, some people are going to be bad cyclists.

That argument can be applied to many other object based accidents or incidents, recently government ministers were considering having all new kitchen knives blunted because an individual who was well known to the law ans anti-terror groups did something that deserves a significantly more significant and final punishment than was recieved. It's not the fault of the knife for being sharp, its the fault of the inconsiderate maniac wielding it.

Instead of crushing ebikes that don't fit the regs, wouldn't police time be better spent by getting people to actually obey cycling laws? £50 on the spot fine for dangerous or inconsiderate cycling would likely work far better. Though it would mean the police would need to actually get out into public and not go after the easiest targets, who are usually the law abiding ones.

 

[AndyBike]

cid raided my house about 4 years ago and said you mind not smoking that while we are here i said no because you raided me put ur face masks back on.

And you can swear at them as well. Basically the public disorder act isnt a thing if its inside your home, which is a private space. So therefore the act cannot be applied

 

[soundwave]

round here plod gets the fast food from ebike bike riders on 1000w hub motors and batts in bin bags delivered direct to there car window.

and there all out side mcds waiting for orders just plod cant go up there unless there bulb is on

 

[Sturmey]

This is the problem with many online communities, especially UK ones, people are fixated on fhe current laws and fail to see how further changes to the law in the form of relaxation of laws could be beneficial.
I've already made the argument that relaxing the laws to throttle and higher wattage motors would open up cycling to a wider variety of individuals, giving some significant health (both physical and mental) benefits...............

Many people on this forum have managed to personalize their bike and work around the legal difficulties. I would think that one danger in calling for a revision of the laws that relate to pedelecs is that it could backfire and result in the tightening up of regulations in the name of safety. This could result in making pedelecs very expensive and even more difficult to adapt as for example the case with Bosch motors. I believe big European suppliers (e.g Bosch) make submissions to these committees etc., as they are entitled to, and it would be in their interests, for example to restrict cheap Chinese imports etc in the name of greater safety. And of course, protectionism is back on the agenda again. .Anyhow its just a thought......

 

[Bizdustry]

Don't publish links here to content that shows how to break the law.

I do not show how to remove the restriction in the video? The bike comes restricted to comply with EAPC regulations to 15.5mph.

 

[saneagle]

I've not seen any arguments about why a motor over 250W 'isnt needed

Let me try for you. I believe that you have a misunderstanding about the law.

The law says that a motor must be "RATED" at no more than 250w. There is effectively no rule for how the rating should be done, so a manufacturer can rate any high powered motor at 250w if they want.

Many manuafacturers are now aware of that so they're now producing bikes that can produce a lot of power, and in many cases more power than what people used to class as 500w, 750w or 1000w. Typically for hub-motors, those higher rated motors can produce that power because they're allowed to run at much higher speeds, whichyou can't use because you're limited to 15.5 mph. Let's say that the a motor can output 1000w at 30 mph with a 25 amp controller at 48v. When it's restricted to 15.5 mph, it would only be able to produce about 600w.

If you go back in time, you will see that 250w motors were running at 15.5 mph and providing about 20NM of torque for a hub-motor and 40NM for a crank-drive, but the crank-drive can only make that torque at very low speed.

Power = torque x speed. Without going into units, that would be 20 x 15.5 and 40 x 7.75

Today, you will see 250w motors listed that make 90NM of torque and still 15.5 mph, so the power from a hub-motor would be 90 x 15.5 and 90 x 7.75 for the crank-motor. That's 4 1/2 times the power for some of today's hub-motors compared with ten years ago, yet they're both 250w motors and both legal.

Ask yourself how can a 250w Bosch motor make nearly three times as much power as it used to, but still be 250w?

In the case of the 250w Heinzmann Cargo bike motors, they can drag 500kg up a 14% incline. There is nobody that would need more power than that for their ebike. In other words, nobody needs to complain about power limits because effectively there are none.

If anybody really wants a throttle as well, they can get one as long as they get the SVA test done, which is not difficult, so the law gives you everything you need right now. That's probably why they dropped the idea to make changes, plus, they didn't want hoards of teenagers marauding the neighbourhoods on 500w e-scooters.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Many people on this forum have managed to personalize their bike and work around the legal difficulties. I would think that one danger in calling for a revision of the laws that relate to pedelecs is that it could backfire and result in the tightening up of regulations in the name of safety. This could result in making pedelecs very expensive and even more difficult to adapt as for example the case with Bosch motors. I believe big European suppliers (e.g Bosch) make submissions to these committees etc., as they are entitled to, and it would be in their interests, for example to restrict cheap Chinese imports etc in the name of greater safety. And of course, protectionism is back on the agenda again. .Anyhow its just a thought......

There was already a promising looking consultation done which got shot down however I'd say it's doomerism to just not try again and again, and again. No point in giving up if you fall at the first and while my opinion on consultations is pretty bleak, the more people that get behind something the more a government starts to sweat, especially given that trust in our government is at an all time low, more and more people are starting to see the UK government as a laughing stock and the international community has been laughing at the UK online for over a decade due to the never-ending march to ban more and more things, to no result, but now even world leaders are. If anything the time is starting to get ripe to push for personal freedom based changes. Trying to tighten regulations would result in criminalizing a large amount of people overnight, that tends to make them somewhat unhappy.

Let me try for you. I believe that you have a misunderstanding about the law.

The law says that a motor must be "RATED" at no more than 250w. There is effectively no rule for how the rating should be done, so a manufacturer can rate any high powered motor at 250w if they want.

Many manuafacturers are now aware of that so they're now producing bikes that can produce a lot of power, and in many cases more power than what people used to class as 500w, 750w or 1000w. Typically for hub-motors, those higher rated motors can produce that power because they're allowed to run at much higher speeds, whichyou can't use because you're limited to 15.5 mph. Let's say that the a motor can output 1000w at 30 mph with a 25 amp controller at 48v. When it's restricted to 15.5 mph, it would only be able to produce about 600w.

If you go back in time, you will see that 250w motors were running at 15.5 mph and providing about 20NM of torque for a hub-motor and 40NM for a crank-drive, but the crank-drive can only make that torque at very low speed.

Power = torque x speed. Without going into units, that would be 20 x 15.5 and 40 x 7.75

Today, you will see 250w motors listed that make 90NM of torque and still 15.5 mph, so the power from a hub-motor would be 90 x 15.5 and 90 x 7.75 for the crank-motor. That's 4 1/2 times the power for some of today's hub-motors compared with ten years ago, yet they're both 250w motors and both legal.

Ask yourself how can a 250w Bosch motor make nearly three times as much power as it used to, but still be 250w?

In the case of the 250w Heinzmann Cargo bike motors, they can drag 500kg up a 14% incline. There is nobody that would need more power than that for their ebike. In other words, nobody needs to complain about power limits because effectively there are none.

If anybody really wants a throttle as well, they can get one as long as they get the SVA test done, which is not difficult, so the law gives you everything you need right now. That's probably why they dropped the idea to make changes, plus, they didn't want hoards of teenagers marauding the neighbourhoods on 500w e-scooters.

That is actually quite a solid argument, even if it's just a case of manufacturers obfuscating things. Teenagers here are already everywhere on e-scooters, some adults too. Thing that got me thinking I wanted an ebike was having a go on a mate's e-scooter, though you get actual exercise on an ebike, hence why I went for that than a scooter, that and a bike is generally more controllable.
My other sticking point would be a 'throttle' turning something into a moped. Seems utterly redundant as most riders are still going to need to pedal unless they want to run out of battery in under an hour. For me a thumb throttle feels so much safer as there are times when I want absolutely no power from the motor so I can go at a slower pace and make fine adjustments. Passing pedestrians (especially dog walkers) on thin (wide enough to have 2 people walking side by side) paths (with a river on one side and a ditch on the other) designed for both cycle and foot traffic being one recent, personal, example. Expensive PAS systems and controllers are probably going to make that a non-issue, though I can't see a throttle making anything more dangerous, unless it sticks on.
You've said twist style ebike throttles break a lot, I wouldn't know as I've got a thumb throttle and am able to position it in pretty much any configuration by putting my (gloved) thumb against the side of the throttle, having the side of my thumb hold the lever and the pressure from my thumb hold the lever in place, regardless of (mild-moderate) terrain. For actual mountain biking I'd probably opt for a good mid drive bike with PAS only, though I'd say a throttle definitely has a place.

 

[soundwave]

burgerking delivery mode

 

[matthewslack]

Well, that's more of a people problem and not the fault of the bike.

On that basis we might as well have motorbikes and cars on cycle paths.

Keeping power and speed of EAPCs in line with unassisted bicycles keeps the safety situation reasonably unchanged too.

 

[matthewslack]

I do not show how to remove the restriction in the video? The bike comes restricted to comply with EAPC regulations to 15.5mph.

(A) Fair enough. (B) Legality is affected by ease and method of derestriction.

 

[AndyBike]

 

[saneagle]

(A) Fair enough. (B) Legality is affected by ease and method of derestriction.

It's very quick and easy to derestrict a Shimano. It took me about one second when I did them. Does that make them illegal?