Legal EBIKE LOOPHOLES

[sjpt]

My reading (which I think is the same as Wisper's) is that you can have a throttle that works above 6kph, and that you don't need to pedal, but you do need type approval.

Also you can have a throttle that works above 6kph as long as it only works when you are pedalling. eg just a different way than choosing a higher assist setting on the display to get more power.

 

[jamesporritt]

The police do not and cannot make the law, so challenge them to produce such a law.

If they can find someone knowledgeable enough, they'll only find that such a throttle is permitted, not banned.

That is in this technical regulation:

EN 15194:2009 (E) 13 4.2.4.3 Start up assistance mode 4.2.4.3.1 Requirements: EPAC can be equipped with a start up assistance mode up to 6 km/h designed speed or lower values as specified by the manufacturer. Unauthorized use shall be prevented. This mode shall be activated by the voluntary and maintained action of the user either when riding without pedalling or when the user is pushing the cycle.

One snag with EN15194 is that it's adoption was voluntary and only France and Great Britain in the EU at the time adopted it and we are stuck with it since. But of course that is good, since it proves the police are wrong about having any throttle being illegal.
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Thank you. I shall ride with printed technical regulations.

 

[sjpt]

Throttle assistance
EAPCs that provide electrical assistance without the use of pedals are usually known as ‘twist and go’ e-cycles. It is possible to use these cycles in the same way as any other EAPC. However, under assimilated EU Regulation 168/2013, vehicles with throttle assistance above 3.73mph (6km/h) require type approval.

That doesn't state throttles under 6km/h are legal. Nor does it state whether one has to be pedalling or not while using a throttle under 6km/h.

That says
EAPCs that provide electrical assistance without the use of pedals are usually known as ‘twist and go’ e-cycles. It is possible to use these cycles in the same way as any other EAPC.
Assuming It is possible there means It is legal then no-pedal throttle without the use of pedals is legal, except the however clause makes it subject to type approval if it assists over 6kph without pedalling.

 

[jamesporritt]

That says
EAPCs that provide electrical assistance without the use of pedals are usually known as ‘twist and go’ e-cycles. It is possible to use these cycles in the same way as any other EAPC.
Assuming It is possible there means It is legal then no-pedal throttle without the use of pedals is legal, except the however clause makes it subject to type approval if it assists over 6kph without pedalling.

Yes. The EAPC breadcrumb leads to documentation Flecc mentioned. Clearly the police are wrong to make sweeping false statements about throttles.

 

[flecc]

I'm not disagreeing, just (like many others) confused.
Where did you find those conditions (h)?

The Two and Three Wheeled Motor Vehicles Type Approval regulation 168/2013 contains some exemptions from being classified as motor vehicles, including this one for EAPCs which thus remain bicycles in law: ***

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h.

*** In fact that asterisked regulation above is almost our only valid law, an exemption. The 1983 EAPC regulation and its 2015 amendments to align with the EU are legally invalid.
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[saneagle]

Where does the law state start assist is legal?

EN15194 says that you can have a motor that goes up to 6km/hr without pedalling.

 

[saneagle]

Surely police forces have consulted legal experts before making such statements?

You are joking, right?

 

[Az.]

It doesn't matter how you call it. A throttle, a button, a sensor, a thumber... everybody calls it a throttle. People really don't care about semantics that much. They want to have a line of defense when stopped by police and when police will try to take their bike away.

That is what I would do if my bike was equipped with throttle in this scenario:

Go to DVLA web page. Type "throttle" in search. Scroll down a bit and tap on link:

"Guidance on European type approval for certain electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPC) "

Direct link:

Guidance on European type approval for certain electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPC)

www.gov.uk

Scroll down to point 1.2 and there it is:

"
1.2 Cycles where power can be obtained even when the rider is not pedalling (twist and go)
Under European law these cycles are categorised as “L1e-A” and are required to obtain EU or domestic type approval. They are not required to be registered. There is however an exemption for cycles where power is available only up to 6 kilometres per hour without pedalling, to help start-up, and these are exempt from type approval."

It is not the law, but it is official gov page.

 

[sjpt]

The 1983 EAPC regulation and its 2015 amendments to align with the EU are legally invalid.

Gosh, even more confusing. Why are they legally invalid?

 

[flecc]

Gosh, even more confusing. Why are they legally invalid?

That is a very big story to be written.

But in a nutshell, as part of the adoption of the EU EAPC law we were lawfully ordered by the EU to cancel all conflicting domestic legislation and our 1983 regulation conflicted in almost every possible way. The DfT failed to do the latter. But of course ignoring the law doesn't mean one can ignore it always afterwards, the 1983 law remains invalid for ever and the British courts accept that, replaced by the Type Approval exemption and ordinary bicycle law.

So attempting to align with the EU regulation to cover one's error by amendments to a law already ruled illegal by the EU was an incredibly foolish thing to do.
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[flecc]

There is however an exemption for cycles where power is available only up to 6 kilometres per hour without pedalling, to help start-up, and these are exempt from type approval."

It is not the law, but it is official gov page.

In Great Britain it is the law, see this link

Official government advice pages are generally useless, no court will accept that they say.
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[Az.]

Official government advice pages are generally useless, no court will accept that they say.

Yes, of course, but it is a good line of defense against somebody in uniform who will say "I confiscate your bike, because it has a throttle and all throttles are illegal. I heard it on BBC, so it must be true"

 

[Greg Burrows]

Is it still the case that E bikes and bike to e bike conversions, produced before the 2015 changes to the regulations, are exempt from these new laws.
As I have been running E bikes regurly since 2008, and made my first Ebike back in 1985, when got banned, from driving for 22 months.
Virtually all bikes were fitted with a Throttle (potentiometer) prior to this), I am still running two ebikes all motors are brushed Heinzmann RN 120 motors,Estelle model one, which they stopped manufacturing in 2013/14 , and a Raleigh special 150 made in 2002, with Heinzmann motors, I actually have two Heinzmann 200 w motors on my Raleigh front and back, as I am disabled and they overheat on long hill climbs (live in the Pennines some hills around here 1 in 3) so just swap plug to controller, when one gets up to 60/70 Centegrade, I have talked to police before about this having two motors, they said OK as long as I can only Power One, and not able to power two, as they said ther is no law against carrying a spare motor.
I have no advantage in powering two at the same time any way, as these heinzmanns pull 1200w peak 36 amps.

 

[flecc]

Is it still the case that E bikes and bike to e bike conversions, produced before the 2015 changes to the regulations, are exempt from these new laws.
As I have been running E bikes regurly since 2008, and made my first Ebike back in 1985, when got banned, from driving for 22 months.
Virtually all bikes were fitted with a Throttle (potentiometer) prior to this), I am still running two ebikes all motors are brushed Heinzmann RN 120 motors,Estelle model one, which they stopped manufacturing in 2013/14 , and a Raleigh special 150 made in 2002, with Heinzmann motors, I actually have two Heinzmann 200 w motors on my Raleigh front and back, as I am disabled and they overheat on long hill climbs (live in the Pennines some hills around here 1 in 3) so just swap plug to controller, when one gets up to 60/70 Centegrade, I have talked to police before about this having two motors, they said OK as long as I can only Power One, and not able to power two, as they said ther is no law against carrying a spare motor.
I have no advantage in powering two at the same time any way, as these heinzmanns pull 1200w peak 36 amps.

Yes, considered entirely legal in British law since they are from before 1st January 2016 and have "Grandfather Rights", the general ruling that laws cannot be backdated to before they are passed into law.
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[Greg Burrows]

Thanks flecc, thought that was the case, just thought would check as it appears that from the comments here, the Police are confiscating any bikes with a throttle (potentiometer).
Trouble is PC Plod will probably not know, about the old laws, so suppose would have to tell them this, all my motors speed wise are legally geared, as do around 16 MPH top out. the faster ones I have tried, not enough torque so burn out on hills, and rubbish composite gears in them strip and gets too dangerous going too fast.
I am lucky as found supply for some new RN 120 motors on ebay, but no hubs with them.

 

[flecc]

Trouble is PC Plod will probably not know, about the old laws, so suppose would have to tell them this.

This extract from a government site may be useful to you. It is what our Grandfather Rights were based upon:

2. Is there some leeway for in-scope EAPC models that were in stock or on sale prior to 1 January 2016?

Yes. We believe that in-scope EAPC without type approval can continue to be sold by importers if they were manufactured and imported prior to 1 Jan 2016. Article 12 of 168/2013 states that importers shall place on the market only compliant vehicles, suggesting that EAPC already placed on the market prior to 1 January 2016 can continue to be sold off. This does not permit the import or manufacture of new in-scope EAPC without approval after this date.

Guidance on European type approval for certain electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPC)

www.gov.uk

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[Baz the balloon man]

I cant say for sure about lime bikes but since they are hire bikes from the same source as the hire-scooters which afaik are mostly 500w+ perhaps they fall under the same 'system trial loophole' as the scooters??
If indeed they have 2x 250w rated motors, though if the order is of a sufficient size im sure they could get any ratting they wanted stamped on the motors.

Hope you share your plans and the build of the moped, some of the machines that have been displayed in here are inspiring to say the least..

Thanks for the reply Larkbox sorry for the delay been very busy starting a new building contract all this week

 

[Baz the balloon man]

This extract from a government site may be useful to you. It is what our Grandfather Rights were based upon:

2. Is there some leeway for in-scope EAPC models that were in stock or on sale prior to 1 January 2016?

Yes. We believe that in-scope EAPC without type approval can continue to be sold by importers if they were manufactured and imported prior to 1 Jan 2016. Article 12 of 168/2013 states that importers shall place on the market only compliant vehicles, suggesting that EAPC already placed on the market prior to 1 January 2016 can continue to be sold off. This does not permit the import or manufacture of new in-scope EAPC without approval after this date.

Guidance on European type approval for certain electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPC)

www.gov.uk

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Thanks for the input very helpful

 

[Baz the balloon man]

There is demand for this stuff already. Many fat bikes cruising around. I guess people who are keen to buy 4x4 or SUV are main potential buyers. I mean those who don't have budget for 4x4 or SUV just yet...

Completely not my cup of tea.

yes they are not really pedal bikes but as we where going to buy an electric motorcycle but can not get one safely parked down my house side ally way a a good compromise would be a legal fat tyre mop head and the costs are attractive too.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

If you have two motors the same, then they have to be no more than 125w each. 125w motors are not easy to find.

Yes and looking at the lime bikes I think they have at least 500 W so maybe like scooters they have a dispensation of some kind or both motors are being limited to 250w.
but they are very heavy and have lots of torque.