Leaving the EU

[trex]

let me put to you the case to vote to exit.
I don't have problem with sovereignty though, just ecomonics.
this country is good at creating jobs, that is because our economy is more flexible and better resourced than all other member states. The result of this is certainly not felt by most people. I see every day struggling people that I have known for years struggling ever more because they get older and less competitive in the job market. If you are over 50, your chance of finding a similar job is nowadays practically nil. Of course, out of the EU, they will continue to struggle but the competition for jobs will be less.
I have a son and a daughter. Both are educated to the same level, both live in London. The older managed to get on the property ladder, the younger got hit by tuiton fees and can't even afford the deposit because house prices in London are the way they are. Everyday past, the situation simply gets worse. That's a crazy situation and I so wish we could wind the clock back. Only getting out of the EU could cool the property market.

 

[eHomer]

I'm 65 years old so I've experienced many manifestos and broken promises from every political party.

I readily admit that I dwell on political issues as little as possible because it is such a depressing subject, and I'd rather spend my life thinking about things that do not subconsciously lower my day to day quality of life.

I therefore also admit to personally knowing very little about the crucial EU leave or stay deciding factors.

I will certainly be voting to leave though, because there are such a wide range (all parties) of very knowledgeable and respectable politicians and highly educated people that feel strongly that we should leave. They are in a position to know far more about it than I ever could. If it was such a bad idea to leave, then I couldn't see it having that much informed support.

If the Brexit camp had only been supported by extremists or had a specific political flavour bias, then my decision would have been different.

 

[Croxden]

I have a problem on deciding when I listen to the power mongers banging on like infants in the playground making ever more outlandish statments.

I'm sure at one time proper debates to place by informed people, now it's just pie in the sky.

On thing is for sure, you only know when politicians are being truthful is when they are calling each other liars.

 

[tillson]

I have a problem on deciding when I listen to the power mongers banging on like infants in the playground making ever more outlandish statments.

I'm sure at one time proper debates to place by informed people, now it's just pie in the sky.

On thing is for sure, you only know when politicians are being truthful is when they are calling each other liars.

This is the problem. We have Cameron, on the record, clearly stating that he will do everything within his power to expedite Turkey's membership of the EU.

Now that it has been pointed out that Turkey joining the EU has the potential to swell the UK's population by several more millions, all of a sudden Cameron is talking about a UK veto and decades before Turkey will be able to join.

We simply can't trust them. If they get the remain vote, that will be it, they will shaft us. It is the working classes who rely on things like the NHS and don't have the cash to insulate ourselves from the effects of a continued massive influx of people soaking up resources who will suffer.

I'm still of the opinion that uncontrolled, unplanned migration is a huge threat to the UK both now and in coming years. You simply cannot allow an endless flow of people of unknown and unchecked background enter into a country without something breaking.

In life everything has some for of governor or safety device. An engine has an over speed governor to stop it breaking up, a pressure vessel has a relief valve to stop it exploding, an electrical circuit has a fuse to stop it catching fire, a toilet cistern has an overflow to stop it flooding the bathroom etc etc, Immigration into the UK is currently a system without any form of governor or safety device. No one has any clue whatsoever as to what is going on. Its an engine over-speed, a pressure vessel sitting at a dangerously high pressure, an overloaded circuit and a dripping cistern. Disaster can be the only outcome unless some form of control is put in place. Leaving the EU will at least enable us to start implementing those controls.

 

[flecc]

Immigration into the UK is currently a system without any form of governor or safety device.

As in every country on earth, the control is built in since it's a self-regulating system.

Immigration only continues while it has an advantage. Once the input results in deterioration of the advantages, the migration stops and turns elsewhere.

It's one world that is home to all of us. We in Britain treated it that way for hundreds of years roaming and living everywhere on all continents, and still do. We can hardly protest when others wish to do the same when it suits them.
.

 

[tillson]

As in every country on earth, the control is built in since it's a self-regulating system.

Immigration only continues while it has an advantage. Once the input results in deterioration of the advantages, the migration stops and turns elsewhere.

It's one world that is home to all of us. We in Britain treated it that way for hundreds of years roaming and living everywhere on all continents, and still do. We can hardly protest when others wish to do the same when it suits them.
.

We can't alter what's been done in the past by our ancestors. Slavery, invading other countries, all wrong but out of our control, so no need for guilt or an apology.

I see what you are saying regarding migrants moving on when the advantages of being in a particular place cease. A bit like locusts move on once the crop in a particular field has been destroyed. That field then has no advantages, so the locust no longer comes. I'm not calling immigrants locusts, but this is the principle that you are trying to illustrate.

I don't want the country to become ravaged and baron of all its resources. That's why OUT will help prevent this from happening.

 

[flecc]

A bit like locusts move on once the crop in a particular field has been destroyed. That field then has no advantages, so the locust no longer comes. I'm not calling immigrants locusts, but this is the principle that you are trying to illustrate.

That is definitely not the principle, we are speaking of people with the intelligence to migrate here, not mindless insects.

Immigration will cease and immigrants depart as soon as the balance here tips below what is on offer elsewhere. Indeed this mechanism is already active, as we've seen in their common preference for Germany. In another example many Eastern Europeans have already gone back, following failure to get work.

It will only need a slight increase in unemployment for the immigration to start veering elsewhere.
.

 

[tillson]

That is definitely not the principle, we are speaking of people with the intelligence to migrate here, not mindless insects.

I wanted to make the point that I am not saying that migrants are insects or who's lives have a similar worth. I was comparing motivation.

You say migrants will stop coming to the UK once the motivation, jobs, welfare, standard of living have diminished or gone completely. I made the point that locusts will no longer converge on an area of crop once that it has been diminished or gone completely. The instinctive motivational urge to go to an area which satisfies certain base needs is the same in both insects and humans, it is inbuilt.

As you rightly say, the insect is mindless, so it continues to converge on a specific area of crop until it is destroyed, it then movies on to create further destruction. The human, hopefully is intelligent, so it imposes controls and management of people movement to prevent the catastrophic destruction.

Being part of the EU and it's open borders is mindless insect policy. Quitting the EU and controlling and managing the flow of people is intelligent human behaviour.

So the choice is simple. Mindless insect EU policy or the human intelligence of BREXIT.

 

[trex]

I agree with Tillson that immigrants are opportunistic, can ravage this country and only Brexit can prevent this but compare immigrants with locus? no.

 

[flecc]

You say migrants will stop coming to the UK once the motivation, jobs, welfare, standard of living have diminished or gone completely.

No, I absolutely didn't say gone completely. Instead I stressed only a slight change is necessary.

The human, hopefully is intelligent, so it imposes controls and management of people movement to prevent the catastrophic destruction.

No again, as I said, the intelligent human moves on of it's own accord out of self interest, long before destruction. It was self-interest that brought them here in the first place. No management is needed in this self correcting system.

Catastrophic destruction isn't even possible in this system.
.

 

[tillson]

I agree with Tillson that immigrants are opportunistic, can ravage this country and only Brexit can prevent this but compare immigrants with locus? no.

I had hoped that I had made it clear that in no way do I consider the worth of a migrant (human being), being similar to that of an insect. I did not say that anywhere in any of my posts.

The point that I was making is that certain factors motivate all of us as humans whether we be migrants or natives of a country. By the same principle, certain factors motivate insects.

Humans are intelligent and developed and will manage and control population and demand on resources through control of borders and movement of people from one area to another. Insects don't do this because they don't posses the intelligence to put it into practice. They tend to mass on an area, over populate it, destroy it, die out in large numbers and then move on to the next location.

The EU policy of open borders without any controls whatsoever is insect mentality driven.

 

[trex]

like all principles, there will be cases where the EU freedom of movement will be severely tested. I know from my children's friends that a lot of their friends come to work in London/the UK for a few years then move on. My children do a bit same, they have all worked abroad for a few years.
At the moment, London is seen as the most successful capital city in Europe for work but not for the living. Only a few hours away by train, Amsterdam is much better.

 

[tillson]

No, I absolutely didn't say gone completely. Instead I stressed only a slight change is necessary.

Health care and the welfare system has a long way to fall before it becomes unattractive to immigrants from some areas. I don't want to see it plummet to these levels.

No again, as I said, the intelligent human moves on of it's own accord out of self interest, long before destruction. It was self-interest that brought them here in the first place. No management is needed in this self correcting system.

Catastrophic destruction isn't even possible in this system.

Again, our systems have a long long way to fall before this happens and we need controls to prevent this.

 

[flecc]

Health care and the welfare system has a long way to fall before it becomes unattractive to immigrants from some areas. I don't want to see it plummet to these levels.

Again, our systems have a long long way to fall before this happens and we need controls to prevent this.

Here we'll have to disagree since there's no proof either way at present.

However, I see your stance as self defeating, since if we leave the EU the millions of immigrants we have from outside the EU will be stuck here.

If we stay in the EU, as soon as things get less good here they'll head off to Holland and Germany where they are more successful, since no-body will be able to stop them doing that with EU free movement.
.

 

[trex]

Health care and the welfare system has a long way to fall before it becomes unattractive to immigrants from some areas. I don't want to see it plummet to these levels.
Again, our systems have a long long way to fall before this happens and we need controls to prevent this.

our healthcare is no match for France, Germany and Spain. There is no queue there because they spend on health a lot more than we do.
Welfare is only attractive to a tiny minority of EU migrants. As there is no likelihood that we will require a visa from EU citizens after Brexit, the latter will continue to come. The only form of EU immigration that we can reduce after Brexit is who can get jobs here. Even on this subject, there will be arrangements to make the process of obtaining working visa for EU citizens a doodle after Brexit.

 

[Croxden]

Would we be better off in the EU when we go bankrupt or out of it.
It seems we are heading towards it, this Brexit thing diverts attention from more important things.

 

[trex]

there is far less chance that we'd go bankrupt inside the EU. All areas of our economy is constantly moritored by the EU. A huge number of complicated directives and regulations keep our economy and our banks safe. The EU is truly a huge machine composed of and run by the elite from member countries, that's why nobody appreciates it. That machine makes directives/laws for 500 million people, economically and usually so good that they don't need to go back and forth for revision like those made by Westminster, each time another party gains power.

 

[gray198]

That is definitely not the principle, we are speaking of people with the intelligence to migrate here, not mindless insects.

Immigration will cease and immigrants depart as soon as the balance here tips below what is on offer elsewhere. Indeed this mechanism is already active, as we've seen in their common preference for Germany. In another example many Eastern Europeans have already gone back, following failure to get work.

It will only need a slight increase in unemployment for the immigration to start veering elsewhere.
.

Is this going to happen while they keep admitting the Eastern block countries and possibly Turkey who in general have much lower living standards than the main Eu countries

 

[tillson]

our healthcare is no match for France, Germany and Spain. There is no queue there because they spend on health a lot more than we do.

A friend of mine has moved to France. He is totally self sufficient, living off saving and a military pension.

The health system there has billed him for over 6000 Euro's worth of medical care and procedures.

The EU is taking us for mugs.

 

[gray198]

I see that Steve Hilton who was very much a conservative insider and indeed a friend of David Cameron is saying we should leave the EU because it is basically run by big businesses who are able to lobby it to further their own interests. He also says that the UK is ungovernable while we are a member of the club. Personally would not trust Cameron as far as I could throw him. He changes his position when he thinks it's to his advantage. Although I don't agree with the aims of Jeremy Corbyn I think he is a much more honest politician. I would say they are few so whenever I am told ''facts'' by them I don't believe it. I think that people all across Europe are fed up of the project which is causing situations as in Austria. We should leave and put up with the short term pain and make our leaders earn their money