Just back from Presteigne...

[Danny-K]

Didn't have time to seek them out, but as I made my way along the footpath to the event I saw one of them belting along the road. And it was fast. Pretty sure it's the same company advertising on eBay, their shop is based in Banbury I think.

What do I think? The well respected Wisper has a means to travel above the legal maximum, but only 'off-road'. So does Cytronex with it's fast 'off-road' only wheel (sold separately). And Kalkhoff make clear that the maximum can be exceeded by changing the rear sprocket.
So, if it's okay for the 'big boys' then it's got to be fair-do's for all players . . .

- So long as it's 17/18mph I don't think the authorities are going to show much interest but it's only a matter of time before it all gets too much, that it'll then all come tumbling down with log books, MOT's, registration plates, road tax, insurance - and compulsory helmets, (sure I've seen the same eBay company advertising 40mph!)

Personally I don't mind MOT's/insurance/helmet etc., if I could be assured of a lightweight bicycle that could travel at 25/28mph and cover the same distance per charge as my Salisbury - without a massively expensive 48 volt battery. It's the government thinking we're getting something for nothing that will rile them - not safety issues. After all, our government and most MP's are experts in getting something for nothing on expenses aren't they? God forbid we should get in, on their act.

 

[flecc]

One of the displays at Presteigne was Xipi, boasting their 1000W 'legal' bikes and kits. I am not sure how much they know of the legal standing of pedelecs, but they claim to be legal on road when in normal mode.

Here is a link to their website (Xipi under construction).

I didnt get to have a go as they were saving their batteries for the 'unassisted' 10 lap race which I didnt see (who won that btw?).

What do people think?

John

It's a direct drive motor John, and some of these are wired with two internal modes to give the two powers. It's legal in the low powered mode but very illegal in the high power one.

One disadvantage of this type of motor is that they tend to be less efficient and greedy all the time, so the range suffers, especially in the boost mode. As you see, they speak of 10 to 15 miles on a 12 Ah battery which is very poor indeed for such a large capacity battery. The Wisper 905 series gets around three times that with a battery only one sixth bigger capacity.
.

 

[Tiberius]

One of the displays at Presteigne was Xipi, boasting their 1000W 'legal' bikes and kits. ....

I didnt get to have a go as they were saving their batteries for the 'unassisted' 10 lap race which I didnt see (who won that btw?).

They were thrashed. Completely outclassed .
Results available on Tour de Presteigne

Seriously, it was a long way behind me. I was chasing the Zero motorcycle. It was only afterwards that I found he wasn't an official entrant and I'd won.

See also the hill climb times.

Nick

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Legal

Hi John

If it were legal, why would they put a 250W stamp on the 1000w motor?

All the best David

 

[JohnInStockie]

They were thrashed. Completely outclassed .
Results available on Tour de Presteigne

Seriously, it was a long way behind me. I was chasing the Zero motorcycle. It was only afterwards that I found he wasn't an official entrant and I'd won.

See also the hill climb times.

Nick

Congratulations Nick, I hadnt realised that you had had such a comprehensive victory, well done!!!.

I did note that they came in second twice though, but then Ian Johnson again did very well too!

John

 

[Dynamic Position]

It's a direct drive motor John, and some of these are wired with two internal modes to give the two powers. It's legal in the low powered mode but very illegal in the high power one.

.

I think Xipi have it covered in their Error & Omissions page.

Its buyer beware!

With a 1000 Watt electric motor it is illegal in most countries including UK and Europe even if the rider sticks to the speed limit!

The only bike (pedelec) that is legal in Europe above 15mph is the Kalkhoff S Class Proconnect because that is the only bike that has passed the relevant EU Standard. This bike is legal, but the rider must keep within the law.

 

[flecc]

I think Xipi have it covered in their Error & Omissions page.

Its buyer beware!

With a 1000 Watt electric motor it is illegal in most countries including UK and Europe even if the rider sticks to the speed limit!

The only bike (pedelec) that is legal in Europe above 15mph is the Kalkhoff S Class Proconnect because that is the only bike that has passed the relevant EU Standard. This bike is legal, but the rider must keep within the law.

But it is a switched mode motor. In the lower switched mode it is 250 watt rated and can only assist to 15 mph. As long as the rider is in that mode on the road it would appear to be legal since it's not able to propel the bike to illegal speeds.
.

 

[torrent99]

But it is a switched mode motor. In the lower switched mode it is 250 watt rated and can only assist to 15 mph. As long as the rider is in that mode on the road it would appear to be legal since it's not able to propel the bike to illegal speeds.
.

Yes, to me it's just the same as a lot of bikes with a de-restrict button (e.g. Wisper, Mistral), only this de-restrict is potentially just a lot faster.

Looking at their webpage, I see they are using Lead Acid batteries!?!!? To me this looks like any number of the 1000W kits you can buy on ebay. Dubious.

 

[bode]

Not all standard bikes at Presteigne...

 

[bode]

Other interesting sights

 

[Dynamic Position]

But it is a switched mode motor. In the lower switched mode it is 250 watt rated and can only assist to 15 mph. As long as the rider is in that mode on the road it would appear to be legal since it's not able to propel the bike to illegal speeds.
.

EU (and UK) legal requirements apply to the bike. A bike fitted with a motor rated 1000 watt would be classed as an electric motor bike whether or not it was switched to 250 watt. On EU certified s-class pedelecs the motor will not exceed 250 watt therefor it is a pedelec. The speed difference between an s-class pedelec and other pedelecs being down to the speed regulator parameter settings.

Legal electric bicycles/pedelecs have their maximum speed regulated to 15mph. If the regulator is defeated by any means then it is no longer legal.

It is quite possible that a pedelec with an electric motor that exceeds 250 watt (without insurance/tax disk required for motor bikes) would be deemed to be illegal if used on the road without the battery connected!

The s-class pedelec by design (certified by EU, e.g. TUV Germany) is still legal, but it too would become illegal if it was modified so that its speed exceeded its class. The emphasis is placed on the s-class pedelec rider: If the rider exceeds the speed limit (or other laws e.g. not displaying an insurance disc if required by national law) they could be prosecuted for the offence comitted, but providing the bike is unmodified the bike is still legal.

 

[eddieo]

Then the law is an ass....Nothing new there

Personally I am not interested in excesive speed on a bike. it is torque/grunt I need to get my 17 stone up hills I can not see why a restricted more powerful bike cannot be legalised.

I have mentioned this before.....a colleague has bought a V12 6.5 litre AM capable of god knows what speed but the LAW says 70mph.

So why can't we have more efficient/powerful/restricted and GREEN E bikes

 

[flecc]

EU (and UK) legal requirements apply to the bike. A bike fitted with a motor rated 1000 watt would be classed as an electric motor bike whether or not it was switched to 250 watt. On EU certified s-class pedelecs the motor will not exceed 250 watt therefor it is a pedelec. The speed difference between an s-class pedelec and other pedelecs being down to the speed regulator parameter settings.

Legal electric bicycles/pedelecs have their maximum speed regulated to 15mph. If the regulator is defeated by any means then it is no longer legal.

But not in practice!

A very high proportion of the e-bikes on the market have their speed regulated by the controller to a maximum assist of 25kph/15mph, that easily tweaked, often with a simple link unplugging of an accessible connector. Their motors have continuous power capability of up to three times the EU continuous maximum, and almost none conform to that maximum! Your statement that they are restricted to 250 watt maximum output is completely wrong as any rolling road test will show. That includes the S class bikes.

There is no difference in switched mode motors where the same two conditions are possible. Both are illegal according to the letter of the law. They are not treated as illegal in industry practice, and the switched mode motor in question here may be more fully compliant if it's restricted to a 250 watt output limit in its lower mode as claimed, something not true of most of our "legal" bikes when restricted.
.

 

[Dynamic Position]

But not in practice!

Their motors have continuous power capability of up to three times the EU continuous maximum, and almost none conform to that maximum! Your statement that they are restricted to 250 watt maximum output is completely wrong as any rolling road test will show. That includes the S class bikes.

.

In practice the motors might well have an apparent continuous power capability up to 3 times the EU requirements, this is a natural physical limit which will vary between motors. An electric motor is rated by its temperature-limited power. This nominal power is what is stamped on the motor: 250 watt is the limit the EU set for electric bicycles/pedelecs, higher than this it will be classed as something else e.g. e-motorbike.
An electric motor having a nominal rating of 250 watt can carry an overload (useful in pedelec application for carrying riders up hills against an on-coming breeze) for a short period without overheating.
Better quality motors will have a superior overload/time characteristic due directly to their insulation (having a higher maximum allowable temperature) and this will be reflected in the price.
I know from the Pedelecs Forum that (legal) electric motors for bicycles have their power rating stamped on them, have they got a class marking?

There is no difference in switched mode motors where the same two conditions are possible. Both are illegal according to the letter of the law. They are not treated as illegal in industry practice, and the switched mode motor in question here may be more fully compliant if it's restricted to a 250 watt output limit in its lower mode as claimed, something not true of most of our "legal" bikes when restricted.
.

Industry practice complies with EU law for pedelecs when a nominal <= 250 watt electric motor is used so they are not illegal. A nominal > 250 watt electric motor is not legal as far as EU pedelec law is concerned even if it is permanently infallibly switched to (an apparent) <= 250 watt!

If the letter of the electric bicycle/pedelec law is followed, the UK electric bicycle trade is non compliant with it when it sells electric bicycles/pedelecs exceeding 200 watt nominal power with a throttle!

Buyer be ware!

 

[Straylight]

Beware of what? As mentioned before, such distinctions in the law are practically uninforceable at the consumer level, as each individual's bike would need to be tested seperately, incurring massive cost implications. It seems to me that the powers that be are content to turn a myopic if not blind eye, as long as people don't completely take the Mickey.

I agree with what someone else said (maybe not even in this thread - sorry, too lazy to look), about cars that can drive at speeds vastly exceeding the legal limit - the owness is on the driver/rider to behave sensibly. You could say that the difference is that cars require a licence & registration, but you could also say that the law effectively licences anybody to ride an e-bike. In any case, there will be no clarification untill someone appears before a court, having done something monumentally stupid, may that day be a long time comming!

 

[rog_london]

Beware of what? As mentioned before, such distinctions in the law are practically uninforceable at the consumer level, as each individual's bike would need to be tested seperately, incurring massive cost implications. It seems to me that the powers that be are content to turn a myopic if not blind eye, as long as people don't completely take the Mickey.

I agree with what someone else said (maybe not even in this thread - sorry, too lazy to look), about cars that can drive at speeds vastly exceeding the legal limit - the owness is on the driver/rider to behave sensibly. You could say that the difference is that cars require a licence & registration, but you could also say that the law effectively licences anybody to ride an e-bike. In any case, there will be no clarification untill someone appears before a court, having done something monumentally stupid, may that day be a long time comming!

Which, IMO, means that there's no problem with people doing a few MPH over the 15 MPH assist limit with the motor still helping them - I can't see anyone on a Wisper in 'off-road' mode ever having a problem. It's just not obvious enough to a casual observer to attract unwelcome attention. However, if a derestricted e-bike is seen doing 30 MPH on the flat with the rider apparently free-wheeling, I think that might well be a different matter.

Human nature being what it is, I suspect it's only a matter of time before somebody gets 'nicked' doing something like that. Also as the police become more aware of e-bikes, they are likely to get to know the likely culprits, just as an old Ford Pop probably won't be doing a ton along the motorway, but a Porsche might well be....

Rog.

 

[flecc]

I know from the Pedelecs Forum that (legal) electric motors for bicycles have their power rating stamped on them, have they got a class marking?

Industry practice complies with EU law for pedelecs when a nominal <= 250 watt electric motor is used so they are not illegal. A nominal > 250 watt electric motor is not legal as far as EU pedelec law is concerned even if it is permanently infallibly switched to (an apparent) <= 250 watt!

I'm afraid you appear to be reading documents rather than knowing the actual position.

1) Hardly any e-bike motors have their power rating stamped on them.

2) Industry practice does not comply, it's as I've said.

3) Overload does not come into it on the great majority of our motors. They will run at well over the legal limit without overheating as long as current is supplied, i.e. continuous maximum power.

4) I have measured these powers and so have other technically proficient members.

5) The actual continuous hill climb performance of many bikes without pedal effort applied (just spinning in pedelec mode) is irrefutably far, far beyond what could be possible with 250 Watts of power applied.

6) The only time I've seen powers widely correspond to the law was with the British 200 Watt limit law at the very beginning of e-bikes. It was easier to comply then since the assist speed limit was 12 mph, but even with that benefit the bikes were pathetically weak. The industry sensibly reacted accordingly and has done so ever since to varying degrees.

No matter how many circular arguments you produce, mixing bits of fact with bits of law to try to support your position, these are the facts. The civil service, politicians (and presumably yourself?) can be safely left to read their legal documents and apply a three monkeys view in respect of the practice. In here it's the real world facts that count and members buying an e-bike need to know that the 250 Watts rating is just a legal nicety, and that bikes are available with a wide range of actual continuous maximum powers.

Waffling about what should be does not help them in their choice, nor does the alarmist warning to beware.
.

 

[flash]

Some pictures of the parade

Just got back from holiday. We attended Presteigne on the Sunday and I would like to say a massive thank you to the organisers it was a brilliant event.

Here are some pictures I took of the Parade.

Tour de Presteigne Parade - a set on Flickr

 

[Dynamic Position]

But not in practice!

There is no difference in switched mode motors where the same two conditions are possible. Both are illegal according to the letter of the law. They are not treated as illegal in industry practice, and the switched mode motor in question here may be more fully compliant if it's restricted to a 250 watt output limit in its lower mode as claimed, something not true of most of our "legal" bikes when restricted.
.

Flecc,

I don't have any knowledge of electric bicycles other than reading what information I can get from the internet in the hope that I can purchase an electric bicycle, pedelec or kit that will suit my needs.

1) e-bike motors might not have a power rating stamped on them, but the e-bike manufacturer will have had to disclose assurances including motor rating before gaining EU approval for the pedelec to be sold throughout the EU.

2)

Industry practice does not comply .

This could well be true, in which case the EU may take action against the manufacturer importer or supplier.


3) Unless the electric motor is 100% efficient, it will produce heat. When pedelec assistance is restricted the heat produced will be within the electric motors parameters therefor overload will be unlikely. Operating an electric bike outwith the design parameters will result in the electric motor producing more heat and this will lead to the motor having a shorter life span.

4) Your measured powers will be correct. The EU certification will have been granted without 3rd party conformity tests. The manufacturer/importer assurances are enough for EU officials to approve.

5)

The actual continuous hill climb performance of many bikes without pedal effort applied (just spinning in pedelec mode) is irrefutably far, far beyond what could be possible with 250 Watts of power applied. .

This is a bonus for the purchaser of an electric bicycle/pedelec because the onus is on the manufacturer/importer/supplier.

6)

The only time I've seen powers widely correspond to the law was with the British 200 Watt limit law at the very beginning of e-bikes. It was easier to comply then since the assist speed limit was 12 mph, but even with that benefit the bikes were pathetically weak. The industry sensibly reacted accordingly and has done so ever since to varying degrees..

I think the industry is just taking advantage of the way the EU operates. Historically Uk (national) regulations were not as prescriptive as other EU countries (national) regulations, this allowed more freedom in design but the final product had meet much stricter tests before being approved suitable for sale.

In here it's the real world facts that count and members buying an e-bike need to know that the 250 Watts rating is just a legal nicety, and that bikes are available with a wide range of actual continuous maximum powers. .

I agree. Any legal problem with an unmodified e-bike rests with the manufacturer, importer or supplier.

What do you think the position would be for e-bike kits e.g. The Cytronex Kit?

 

[bode]

Just got back from holiday. We attended Presteigne on the Sunday and I would like to say a massive thank you to the organisers it was a brilliant event.

Here are some pictures I took of the Parade.

Yes, it was a great event; thanks for the pictures (glad that there were one or two in which I could see myself).