Just back from Presteigne...

[flecc]

1) e-bike motors might not have a power rating stamped on them, but the e-bike manufacturer will have had to disclose assurances including motor rating before gaining EU approval for the pedelec to be sold throughout the EU.

That's right, contrary to the common misunderstanding it's the e-bike and not the motor which should have a prominent plate on it stating the power rating and weight of the bike. Since none of them have this you can see why I was insistent that the industry doesn't comply, quite the opposite in fact, both in the plating requirement and powers. As one member with some relevant experience in this field remarked, the power is whatever the manufacturer wants to say it is!

I think the industry is just taking advantage of the way the EU operates.

I think this is just a matter of necessity. It's no exaggeration to say that the e-market would be very seriously damaged and possibly destroyed if power limits were enforced. The only bike motor I know that unquestionably complies is useless on hills. As one reviewer put it, "it only has the power to pull itself up the hill, leaving the rider to do as much as they would on an unpowered bike".

What do you think the position would be for e-bike kits e.g. The Cytronex Kit?

I think this could be legally problematic. As I remarked above, it's the bike that is supposed to conform, so how does a home construction comply? Once again at present, it's a matter of the market doing it's own thing and avoiding any attention to the law.

None of this questionable compliance really matters while the market is as small as it is, but if the market ever becomes a substantial multiple of it's present level, these issues will have to be addressed.

We have a microcosm of this with pedelec regulations, where we should have been complying with EU regulations for many years but that was ignored. Now the Royal Mail Post Office announce an intention to buy some 14,000 e-bikes, the compliance enforcement is now intended and in hand.
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[Dynamic Position]

I think this could be legally problematic. As I remarked above, it's the bike that is supposed to conform, so how does a home construction comply? Once again at present, it's a matter of the market doing it's own thing and avoiding any attention to the law.
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Providing the Nano Motor that is used has a CE mark it shows that it meets EU approval even if the CE mark was issued just for the motor meeting EMC requirements.

No-more-hills/Modern Times are on a legal sticky wicket if they supply a modified bike or kit within the EU without the CE mark.

Other manufacturers/suppliers/distributors of complete e-bicycles/pedelecs will have CE mark on the bike which covers all the components used.

Are any owners of Cytronex equiped bicycles able to verify if there is a CE mark stamped on the Nano motor?

 

[Tiberius]

You have to be careful here. You can't just assemble CE marked components and then say the assembly meets the requirements.

There are at least 2 pitfalls. One is that the legal framework may require the final assembler to go through some procedures to show compliance. This may be a simple paperwork process or may require testing.

The other is that the act of assembly may make the CE mark on the component invalid. This occurs if the component was assessed for a different function. So you can't, for instance, take a motor that was CE marked for use in a food mixer and put it on a bike and assume its OK.

Basically, the whole idea of CE marking components is pretty meaningless. Manufacturers/assemblers should ignore the sticker and ask for the underlying data.

Nick

 

[rog_london]

So you can't, for instance, take a motor that was CE marked for use in a food mixer and put it on a bike and assume its OK.


Nick

Well, that'll put one or two manufacturers out of business for a start....

Rog.

 

[bode]

Post Office e-bikes

Now the Royal Mail Post Office announce an intention to buy some 14,000 e-bikes...

I have been trying to find details of this story, but have been unable to track down any recent information. Has it been officially confirmed?

 

[flecc]

I think it's still in the trials stage of a number of e-vehicles, and I've heard nothing further. Given the various troubles of the Post Office over the last couple of years and some recent political indecision on it's future (privatisation of parts etc), I don't think they are in any state to make such a large capital expenditure decision at the moment.

Still, they've just declared a profit, first for a while, so maybe they'll get it back on track shortly.
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[Dynamic Position]

You have to be careful here. You can't just assemble CE marked components and then say the assembly meets the requirements.

There are at least 2 pitfalls. One is that the legal framework may require the final assembler to go through some procedures to show compliance. This may be a simple paperwork process or may require testing.

The other is that the act of assembly may make the CE mark on the component invalid. This occurs if the component was assessed for a different function. So you can't, for instance, take a motor that was CE marked for use in a food mixer and put it on a bike and assume its OK.

Basically, the whole idea of CE marking components is pretty meaningless. Manufacturers/assemblers should ignore the sticker and ask for the underlying data.

Nick

Tiberius,

It is as you say, the CE mark just gives an indication that the EU has approved the item on the basis it meets the safety requirements for documented application(s). The lack of the CE mark means it has not been assessed and therfor does not meet the criteria to be sold through the EU market place under EU legislation.

The downside of kits are that the CE approval for the bicycle would also be invalidated and it would probably invalidate the bicycle warranty in the process!

With the Cytronex Kit not being ready until Autumn and the lack of clarity on the legal status of Cytronex, I have now made up my mind to purchase a Kakhoff Proconnect from 50 Cycles. Hopefully I will be on two wheels again before half the year has vanished!

 

[Tiberius]

.... the CE mark just gives an indication that the EU has approved the item

Hi,

Not quite so. There is not actually a system by which the EU approves anything. For some products the approval is done by designated bodies, for some products it is self declaration by manufacturers or importers. There are even product categories for which the question of self declaration versus test house testing depends on arcane considerations that hardly anyone can understand.

So, a lot of manufacturers err on the side of caution and have everything tested. And a lot of manufacturers err on the side of simplicity and self declare.

My advice would be to hire a good consultant.

Nick
(day job: Consultant)

 

[flecc]

With the Cytronex Kit not being ready until Autumn and the lack of clarity on the legal status of Cytronex, I have now made up my mind to purchase a Kakhoff Proconnect from 50 Cycles. Hopefully I will be on two wheels again before half the year has vanished!

I'm surprised that your obsession with the various legality issues results from you only being a private purchaser, I thought you must have had some commercial interest.

Your decision still won't make you legal through, for as I've said, there are no legal e-bikes on the UK market and the one you've decided on is no different. Just for starters, it isn't fitted with a plate where it can easily be read, showing the manufacturer's name, the battery voltage and motor power output rating.
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[Dynamic Position]

Your decision still won't make you legal through, for as I've said, there are no legal e-bikes on the UK market and the one you've decided on is no different. Just for starters, it isn't fitted with a plate where it can easily be read, showing the manufacturer's name, the battery voltage and motor power output rating.
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I think I will change my mind?

If there are no legal e-bikes to be purchased I might as well opt for the Proconnect S if they are available in the UK? Who knows, one day when our politicians sort themselves out and get down to updating legislation I might be able to use it legally!

Where did the 50 Cycles link from this site go?

 

[flecc]

I think I will change my mind?

If there are no legal e-bikes to be purchased I might as well opt for the Proconnect S if they are available in the UK? Who knows, one day when our politicians sort themselves out and get down to updating legislation I might be able to use it legally!

Where did the 50 Cycles link from this site go?

I sympathise, it is a messy situation. The best approach is that of all the manufacturers and customers at present, just sell and buy e-bikes and not allow the politicians inefficiency to withhold benefits we are entitled to. In virtually all cases the customers are simply not aware of the legal non-compliance, and that's probably true of many manufacturers as well.

I understand if you feel you cannot do that in all conscience.

50cycles advertising link from this site went some while ago after they got upset about some comments, but I'm not sure of the current relationship status.

50cycles
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[Dynamic Position]

Flecc,

I have just opened an email from Mark at Cytronex, something I have been waiting for some months. He has provided a link to his new bikes but not the kit. The Cytronex bike prices have gone up quite a bit since I made the initial enquiry but I'm not sure that what he is offering has any significant added value over the 2008 range.

50 Cycles Kalkhoff Pro Connect Bikes look to be better value given the fact that they appear to have been subject to independant inspection tests. I was quite impressed how Tim pitched 50 Cycles defense of the Pro Connect S on Pedelec Forums. I am going to have to think about whether the extra assist range, gearing and hydraulic brakes are worth the additional expense.

I have learned how e-bikes are not exactly what suppliers/sales people tell you. Thank you for your guidance it has been much appreciated.

I am also very grateful to Pedelec Forums for providing this site.

Almost forgot. 50 Cycles/Kalkhoff have a forum for their customers, but I don't know if that is a selling point because this site has been so good.

 

[flecc]

I have a high opinion of the Kalkhoff bikes, they are a very good option.

Having an agent's brand specific forum in addition is an added benefit, getting feedback from many owners undiluted by all the other items that appear in a general forum like this. They are complementary though, the impartiality of this forum and it's source of a second opinion being useful.

I understand the Cytronex kit will not be available until much later in the season, possibly August. The price increases of the Cytronex bikes were matched by those of other brands. The main difference is that the other suppliers increases were much earlier, the Cytronex ones later due to the bikes not being available for a while. The reason for that non-availability was a switch in bike brands used due to a change in the previously used Trek bike design making it no longer suitable for conversion.
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[Dynamic Position]

Flecc,

I have seen quite a few Trek bikes in bike stands and was not impressed by their condition; I don't think they were as old as my Raleigh P4000! I think Mark at Cytronex has made a wise move by using other bicycle makes.

My Raleigh P4000 was just a average bike, any new bike will outclass its specification. I am increasingly looking forward to getting an e-bike now because only once I have tried one, will I appreciate the difference and appreciate the comments of Pedelec Forum members.

I wish I could have gone to Presteigne, it looks fun as well as a good way of comparing e-bikes. I have been looking at the various photographs and members comments with interest hoping to catch some comments on the Cytronex Kit and Kalkhoff Pro Connect S/Tasman.

Did Tim from 50-Cycles have a Tasman or ProConnect S at Presteige?

I have not seen any specific comments or seen any photographs on Pedelec Forums on these e-bikes which is surprising.

Side tracking a bit, do you know of any folding bike which utilises the same battery as the Kalhoff Proconnect/Tasman range?

 

[Barnowl]

Dynamic,

I too have seen quite a few Trek bikes in bike stands and was not impressed by their condition. Come to think of it I haven't been impressed by the condition of most bikes in bike stands. I think it's an anti theft thing.

 

[flecc]

Flecc,

Did Tim from 50-Cycles have a Tasman or ProConnect S at Presteige?

I have not seen any specific comments or seen any photographs on Pedelec Forums on these e-bikes which is surprising.

Side tracking a bit, do you know of any folding bike which utilises the same battery as the Kalhoff Proconnect/Tasman range?

I wasn't at Presteigne so don't know what Tim used there.

There are two folders using the Panasonic unit and battery, both Flyer models from Swiss manufacturer BikeTech. Great quality but very expensive. The prices I show below the photo are slightly out of date so may be a little different now:



Faltrad NS 20kg, Shimano 8 gear Nexus standard, Shimano roller pulse braking (anti-skid) BM-IM70 V-Brake, £2,100

Faltrad KS 19kg, Shimano 9 gear Capreo £2,100

Panasonic make one as well but its not currently sold outside Japan as far as I know.
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[JohnInStockie]

Flecc,

I have seen quite a few Trek bikes in bike stands and was not impressed by their condition; I don't think they were as old as my Raleigh P4000! I think Mark at Cytronex has made a wise move by using other bicycle makes.

My Raleigh P4000 was just a average bike, any new bike will outclass its specification. I am increasingly looking forward to getting an e-bike now because only once I have tried one, will I appreciate the difference and appreciate the comments of Pedelec Forum members.

I wish I could have gone to Presteigne, it looks fun as well as a good way of comparing e-bikes. I have been looking at the various photographs and members comments with interest hoping to catch some comments on the Cytronex Kit and Kalkhoff Pro Connect S/Tasman.

Did Tim from 50-Cycles have a Tasman or ProConnect S at Presteige?

I have not seen any specific comments or seen any photographs on Pedelec Forums on these e-bikes which is surprising.

Side tracking a bit, do you know of any folding bike which utilises the same battery as the Kalhoff Proconnect/Tasman range?

Yes there was a Tasman, but not a PC-S

 

[JohnInStockie]

The other thing I forgot to mention was that the Gepida bikes had a Crank freewheel, meaning that the chain didnt move when you back pedalled, something I have never seen before.

In there brochure they also had a folding electric trike, something else I had not seen before either.

John

 

[flecc]

The other thing I forgot to mention was that the Gepida bikes had a Crank freewheel, meaning that the chain didnt move when you back pedalled, something I have never seen before.

In there brochure they also had a folding electric trike, something else I had not seen before either.

John

All the Panasonic units have that too John, the same on your one. It's essential on these bikes that drive
the chain, so the motor overrun doesn't kick the pedals from under the rider's feet.

They have three freewheels:

1) The back one on the rear wheel to allow freewheeling.

2) one on the motor output drive so the rider can pedal without turning the motor.

3) On the chainwheel as described above.

The only way to dribble oil onto a chain as it runs past is turn the rear wheel backwards!

Here's the inner and outer (two views) parts of the Panasonic chainwheel freewheel:

 

[JohnInStockie]

All the Panasonic units have that too John, the same on your one. It's essential on these bikes that drive the chain, so the motor overrun doesn't kick the pedals from under the rider's feet.

Sorry Flecc I think you mis-understand, when you back pedal, the chain does not move at all, it stays completely still!

I dont have that on mine (do I - you know I have never tested that)

John