Is your pedelec legal? From CTC's cycle magazine

[amigafan2003]

why don't you go back to college

Been thanks, and University.

get some training

Done.

(and some manners)

Glass house

and a proper profession.

Software engineer for Hewlett Packard isn't a proper profression?

Then you will be able to afford some of the nice things in life like us grown ups......

Haha - have you seen what's in my garage? I'm doing very nicely on the financial front thanks ;-)

 

[Cakey]

As stated earlier, I believe around 15% of car drivers have no tax and insurance. They are duly unconcerned about hitting people.
I agree it does not mean we should not understand our risk. But if someone wants to smoke cigs or ride illegal bikes, so be it.

If they hit me I may sue or confiscate said bike .

 

[NRG]

NRG.....I did reply with the current of our controllers perhaps it missed your radar,they are 12amp....we did experiment with a 16amp controller on one prototype...it made the motor noisy,halved the range and in all honesty didn't improve the hillclimbing ability that much...it would have required a retest at TUV China which is expensive,so all in all we rejected it. The bike concerned was our recent ECO bike which is so nice to ride that I didn't want to change anything... that expression 'don't sort what don't need sorting'
With regard to your very technically able reply,you are totally missing the point....IF THE BIKE HAS AN EN15194 CERTIFICATE IT IS LEGAL TO RIDE IN THE UK....whatever fudging may be happening in China is irrelevant unless you want to rewrite the EU directive and challenge the mighty TUV organisation. It may be technically interesting to investigate the legality of controller amperage v motor power and I am sure some out there are cheating but as long as you have that certificate you are UK legal and to most people that is all important especially if you are the poor guy who is being prosecuted for an illegal bike being hit by a bus that started this thread.
Dave
KudosCycles

Hi Dave, I must have missed it...12amps...your bikes produce more than 250w+10% then...OK you have an EN certificate so that's alright despite it being obvious the testing is flawed and your bikes produce more than 250W. The sooner the current EN regulation is changed and improved testing implemented the better IMHO.

 

[Scottyf]

As Flecc point out in lots of posts previous to this one. When the bikes did make just 250w linear the bikes were pretty much unusable in the real world.

Still it keeps people in jobs and makes money from nothing to make sure we are all contained in our safety bubble.

 

[eddieo]

I have not the slightest interest in your garage...the post was for scootyf not you, my mistake and I have edited it

 

[amigafan2003]

When the bikes did make just 250w linear the bikes were pretty much unusable in the real world.

Still it keeps people in jobs and makes money from nothing to make sure we are all contained in our safety bubble.

 

[NRG]

Yes, that true Scott....and Dave another thing, when your test bike passed the EN testing what measures are in place to ensure each and every bike you sell continue to meet those regulations?

We know for instance that the tolerance on controller amperage can vary by as much +30% so unless your supplier or maybe yourselves are calibrating each controller you could well be selling bikes that do not conform to the EN regs...what would happen if that was brought to court in case of an accident involving one of your bikes? The EN regs make no reference to on-going testing....

All I'm trying to do here is highlight the limitations of the current EN regs and the desperate need to change them because at the moment I don't think is sufficient to hide behind them and proclaim yourself 'legal'...

 

[eddieo]

The engineer and his disciples.....

 

[bode]

I don't like Scotty's choice of language, but must agree with his sentiments in regard to someone that I would probably classify as a vituperative old git [drops wooden spoon and takes cover].

 

[amigafan2003]

The engineer and his disciples.....

Way to insult an aetheist

 

[tillson]

Dave, I am sorry to see you are guilty of using a very selective quotation which fuels the fires of the attack dogs on this forum who leap at 50cycles throat without doing their research.

The piece which you quote appears on the web page Kalkhoff Electric Bikes | Kalkhoff Agattu & Pro Connect Bicycles and was part of a reprinted review by someone independent of 50cycles


So what is quoted on the 50cycles site is actually the view of the ebike authority David Henshaw. Even then the selective quote you give does not do David Henshaw full justice. Henshaw's full paragraph is,

Actually reading this paragraph as a whole, I am not sure that David Henshaw was really advocating illegal use of bikes on UK roads. As he explicitly says, he was calling for the ebike laws to be reviewed.

So I looked further on the 50cycles website to see what else could be provoking the attack dogs. The obvious place to look was in the class of bikes that are called SPORT. Perhaps there could be a clue in the name. On the web page Electric Mountain Bike | Power Assisted Bicycle for Off-Road, Sports | 50Cycles it says,

Is this where 50cycles should be warning that illegal bikes should not be used on public roads? Well actually they do give a clear warning. Four bikes from Kalkhoff's PRO range are listed on the SPORT webpage, and in the technical spec of each of these bikes it clearly says,

I have no particular axe to grind with 50 Cycles and have praised them in the past.

However, lets make no mistake here, 50 Cycles are knowingly selling ilegal ebikes for use on the roads. They are importing the German high speed bikes because they perceive that the higher speed gives them a commercial advantage. There is very little reference to the ilegal nature of these bikes on 50 Cycles Website and any mention is so subtle that it is very likely to be overlooked by a potential customer. This lack of prominence is deliberate and it is fully intended that people buy these bikes in blissful ignorance of the law. It is absolutely inconceivable that someone would pay in the region on £4000 for a bike which can only be used in their garden or other private land to which the public are denied access. It is even more inconceivable that a commercial company would import such a machine to sell to back garden cyclists, which must be a microscopic market, if it exists at all.

I also believe that David Henshaw is endorsing the use of these machines. The underlying message being that he thinks that ebike law should change, no body really cares or is taking any notice about ilegal ebikes, so if you fancy one fill yer boots. He should really know better than this.

My personal view is that there should be a weight and speed restriction as it is these two parameters which largely determine how an innocent person will come off when you ride into them. I can't see how limiting the power makes the bike any safer.

 

[Kudoscycles]

QUOTE=NRG;135740]Yes, that true Scott....and Dave another thing, when your test bike passed the EN testing what measures are in place to ensure each and every bike you sell continue to meet those regulations?

We know for instance that the tolerance on controller amperage can vary by as much +30% so unless your supplier or maybe yourselves are calibrating each controller you could well be selling bikes that do not conform to the EN regs...what would happen if that was brought to court in case of an accident involving one of your bikes? The EN regs make no reference to on-going testing....

All I'm trying to do here is highlight the limitations of the current EN regs and the desperate need to change them because at the moment I don't think is sufficient to hide behind them and proclaim yourself 'legal'...[/QUOTE]

NRG...sounds like an ideal opportunity to make a name for yourself and promote ongoing random inspection as being a part of the SGS/TUV testing procedure.....I can give you the contact details of TUV China who I am sure would respond positively to any suggestions that you may have with regard to such matters.
Actually I have visited Suzhou Bafang factory and am impressed by the amount of ongoing testing that they undertake,I am visiting them in April so I will raise the matter of tolerance on motors and controllers with them and report back to you after my visit.
I must say that I rode many e-bikes at the NEC Cycle Show and Eurobike show and any illegal bike was immediately apparent in its performance,95% of the bikes I ride seem to exhibit similar performace which is hardly surprising in that most of us use the SB standard controller and SB 250 watt motor. From that I don't see a 'desperate need' to change the EN15194 test,in practice it seems to function very well,but there is a 'desperate need' for our government to sign up to it and remove all the current grey areas.

Dave
KudosCycles

 

[Scottyf]

My personal view is that there should be a weight and speed restriction as it is these two parameters which largely determine how an innocent person will come off when you ride into them. I can't see how limiting the power makes the bike any safer.

I agree with this view and it really is the limiting factor.
I don't know enough about the EN15194 methods and testing but I do really hope that the laws do get an update. As Flecc says thoough it would probably push into years before anything really becomes apparent.

I'd say most testing methods will be rough round the edges with the way electrical motors work. But the same goes through on vehicle testing.

 

[eddieo]

I have had a chat with VOSA and have had to put my request in writing, for info regarding registering a 30mph electric moped (Kalkhoff or flyer). If its not to messy, I may well treat myself

lets just see just how difficult it is to get road legal......

 

[Jimod]

It would be interesting to find out. There would probably be some testing done to make sure a bike was suitable for the road, brakes and stuff. Personally I don't mind my bike's speed and if I want to go faster I have a nice big Triumph triple.

 

[amigafan2003]

I have had a chat with VOSA and have had to put my request in writing, for info regarding registering a 30mph electric moped (Kalkhoff or flyer). If its not to messy, I may well treat myself

lets just see just how difficult it is to get road legal......

Just remember - if you do get it road legal it's just that - ROAD - don't take it on a cycle route or bridleway. Get a proper helmet. I bet insurance will be fun and I'd lover to see the look on the MOT testers face when it rolls in

"Hello, I'd like to insure a Kalkhoff Agatu Sport"
"A what?"

I bet you'd have to use one of the specialised kit car/bike ensurers.

 

[TwoBikes]

I have had a chat with VOSA and have had to put my request in writing, for info regarding registering a 30mph electric moped (Kalkhoff or flyer). If its not to messy, I may well treat myself

lets just see just how difficult it is to get road legal......

I got told off the last time I said this here, but I'll risk it again....

The document you need is this one:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/MSVA 2010.pdf

Good luck!

 

[eddieo]

It would be interesting to find out. There would probably be some testing done to make sure a bike was suitable for the road, brakes and stuff. Personally I don't mind my bike's speed and if I want to go faster I have a nice big Triumph triple.

with the S class Kalkhoffs and Flyers they are already type approved and TUV tested? On VOSA site it says IF NOT type approved it needs there testing....So It SHOULD be just a brief inspection and examination of paperwork, then registration and number plate

I have imported vehicles before from outside EU and had them VOSA tested, it was relatively straightforward....

 

[amigafan2003]

Quite right eddieo.

Wonder if your driving licence is newer than 1st feb 2001 that you'll need to do a CBT?

 

[NRG]

QUOTE=NRG;135740]Yes, that true Scott....and Dave another thing, when your test bike passed the EN testing what measures are in place to ensure each and every bike you sell continue to meet those regulations?

We know for instance that the tolerance on controller amperage can vary by as much +30% so unless your supplier or maybe yourselves are calibrating each controller you could well be selling bikes that do not conform to the EN regs...what would happen if that was brought to court in case of an accident involving one of your bikes? The EN regs make no reference to on-going testing....

All I'm trying to do here is highlight the limitations of the current EN regs and the desperate need to change them because at the moment I don't think is sufficient to hide behind them and proclaim yourself 'legal'...

NRG...sounds like an ideal opportunity to make a name for yourself and promote ongoing random inspection as being a part of the SGS/TUV testing procedure.....I can give you the contact details of TUV China who I am sure would respond positively to any suggestions that you may have with regard to such matters.
Actually I have visited Suzhou Bafang factory and am impressed by the amount of ongoing testing that they undertake,I am visiting them in April so I will raise the matter of tolerance on motors and controllers with them and report back to you after my visit.
I must say that I rode many e-bikes at the NEC Cycle Show and Eurobike show and any illegal bike was immediately apparent in its performance,95% of the bikes I ride seem to exhibit similar performace which is hardly surprising in that most of us use the SB standard controller and SB 250 watt motor. From that I don't see a 'desperate need' to change the EN15194 test,in practice it seems to function very well,but there is a 'desperate need' for our government to sign up to it and remove all the current grey areas.

Dave
KudosCycles

Desperate was probably the wrong word to use but I feel there is a strong case for change to the EN regs as I've highlighted...and yes its the grey areas that need addressing. As for making a name for myself I've no desire to do so as I'm not associated in any way with the industry but its certainly an opportunity for you...maybe you could work alongside BEBA to achieve it...