Is your pedelec legal? From CTC's cycle magazine

[NRG]

Scotty.....whilst I appreciate that there is a well presented argument as to what is the nominal power rating of all these motors, it is a fact that all companies that have put their bikes through the EN15194 test have a certificate that says the rating of the motor is 250 watts,that makes these bikes legal on UK roads and customers can use these bikes without worry about prosecution. What I find arrogant is that there are some companies in the UK who blatantly advertise their bikes as 300watt or 350watt,the description of the cycles clearly suggests that such power is considered a selling point of the bicycle but they don't seem to care that these bikes are UK illegal. Contributors and viewers of this forum are well advised that these bikes are illegal so if they choose to purchase and use such a bike, they as a intelligent adult have made their own judgement as to the social responsibility and risks of prosecution of using such bikes but based upon good knowledge. However not everyone who buys these bikes reads forums such as this,they make the purchase in trust that a responsible retailer,especially one selling bikes of such high pedigree,would ever sell them a bike that is UK illegal. I suspect that most of them would be shocked to latterly realise that they could be prosecuted for using the bike on UK roads and may not realise same until an accident or police check made them aware,e-bikes are still rare on UK roads so this power limit is not well publicised,the degree of the arrogance is endorsed that these bike often have the motor power clearly visible.
Whilst I personally don't approve of the high power bikes that are openly stated on this forum at least you use illegal bikes with the knowledge of the risks that you are accepting.
As a bike designer I find it frustrating that I am designing bikes within the 250 watt limit,it would be so easy to directly replace the Suzhou Bafang 250 watt motor with the 350 watt motor but that is cheating and illegal and for me not an option.
Dave
KudosCycles

Dave, please can you use line breaks or something!

I would be seriously interested to learn how those EN tests are executed and 'passed' as I have a nagging doubt that in reality theres some fudge going on...I have my doubts that any manufacturer using one of the freely available standard Chinese controllers can pass the test.

I think its only Wisper who currently have a new 'slow power ramp' controller that could possibly pass at the level of current draw in use today.

Also, the test is flawed as it only calls for a static start test to measure power, it does not measure during a hill climb where the bike is already in motion and so drawing full power....I bet there's more than a 250w draw!

I think this is the third or fourth time I've asked but what is the controller current limit on your bikes?

 

[karl101]

... it is a fact that all companies that have put their bikes through the EN15194 test have a certificate that says the rating of the motor is 250 watts....

And here is that test: http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf I've only had a couple of minutes glancing through it, but Annex D "Maximum power measurement - Alternative method" on page 33 looks interesting.

It seems to me though, that all this arguing about what power is really being used could lead to a politician getting exited and we end up with a 10w motor and a man with a red warning flag walking in front of the bike.

Karl

 

[Riche]

I have to say Riche and donkeydoo.....you dont half give up and lose the will to live easily

Where has your spirit of adventure gone....

I just find it pointless argueing with someone who is clearly a saint..

Rich

 

[donkeydoo]

I just find it pointless argueing with someone who is clearly a saint..

Rich

Ditto to that, no wonder d8veh left after getting abuse by some members on this forum. Not going to say who because I will be next in line. Sometimes it's best to just shut up.

 

[10mph]

Dave

Quote from 50 cycles website
'At the sportier end of the scale, Kalkhoff are also quietly selling a couple of top-end 25mph bikes in the three grand region. Great fun, but not strictly speaking road legal in the UK. Still, who cares?'
Good point 'Who cares?'....VOSA,the police,an unsuspecting buyer,the child run over by an illegal bike!!!!!
'Who cares?'
Dave
KudosCycles

Dave, I am sorry to see you are guilty of using a very selective quotation which fuels the fires of the attack dogs on this forum who leap at 50cycles throat without doing their research.

The piece which you quote appears on the web page Kalkhoff Electric Bikes | Kalkhoff Agattu & Pro Connect Bicycles and was part of a reprinted review by someone independent of 50cycles

One of the leading authorities on electric bikes in the UK is David Henshaw, editor of the pioneering A to B magazine. He rates Kalkhoff electric bikes as the best on the market, so here's his detailed explanation of why he takes this view:

So what is quoted on the 50cycles site is actually the view of the ebike authority David Henshaw. Even then the selective quote you give does not do David Henshaw full justice. Henshaw's full paragraph is,

At the sportier end of the scale, Kalkhoff are also quietly selling a couple of top-end 25mph bikes in the three grand region. Great fun, but not strictly speaking road legal in the UK. Still, who cares? We seriously need our electric bike laws reviewed... why should the Germans and Swiss be allowed 'Sports Class' entertainment? Cast off your chains and man the barricades!

Actually reading this paragraph as a whole, I am not sure that David Henshaw was really advocating illegal use of bikes on UK roads. As he explicitly says, he was calling for the ebike laws to be reviewed.

So I looked further on the 50cycles website to see what else could be provoking the attack dogs. The obvious place to look was in the class of bikes that are called SPORT. Perhaps there could be a clue in the name. On the web page Electric Mountain Bike | Power Assisted Bicycle for Off-Road, Sports | 50Cycles it says,

High performance is the key here - more speed, quick-shifting gears, fast tyres, strong brakes and responsive suspension. These bikes are swift, light and built with the best components money can buy.

Is this where 50cycles should be warning that illegal bikes should not be used on public roads? Well actually they do give a clear warning. Four bikes from Kalkhoff's PRO range are listed on the SPORT webpage, and in the technical spec of each of these bikes it clearly says,

• Motor Panasonic Speed 36V / 350W Please note this exceeds the 250W EPAC so should not be used on public roads unless registered and insured.

 

[eddieo]

I see that someone has left the farm gate open again! with all the mooing and clacking breaking out all over the place.....more like a chat room then e bike forum. I do wish people would post off topic/non e bike related stuff on the appropriate forum.


Back on Topic:

The difference between the 4 S class bikes that 50 cycles sell is that they are fine bikes, perfectly suitable for the intended purpose. In that they are tested in Germany and hold certification (as long as not tampered with and this extends to changing tyres) so they are tested and approved and totally road worthy.

They are rigorously tested and type approved in Germany for use on road at 45kph. So I can buy one in Germany have it registered in my name fit the small plate and I am free to ride it!

You can do the same here, I would think with the supporting paperwork from Germany it would be a piece of cake to get these bikes street legal over here as electric mopeds....

Its the bikes like the ones Frank sells and promotes ad nauseam on here, and the others who call for 2000 watt 40 mph bikes (then when challenged bottle out and remover the repeated references) That have NOT been tested, you have NO idea in this case what the stopping power is like, and they are a disaster waiting to happen in my opinion.


EDIT:

10 mph, I can assure you that the bit about non compliance with epac regs has been added since I looked yesterday! What they should be doing instead of editing their website and producing a get out of jail card, is advising and helping customers through the SVA/VOSA registration process (Flecc knows more about this) these bike should be a cinch and may be excepted anyway under EU legislation

 

[Scottyf]

Im bored of both you and Indalo chipping in your two pence worth on anything that does not add anything positive to the forum but negativility.

If any one should leave its you and your pointless boring comments that do nothing to help out people.
Legal or not. I feel you have no technical ability or a willingness to learn or contribute.

I've not once read anything useful from you to help other members.
You just chip in and moan.

Your a grumpy old man. That occasionaly posts interesting news about new ebike releases but thats it.

Sick of it.

{REMOVED}

 

[eddieo]

quote scottyf (to add context to my reply)


"Im bored of both you and Indalo chipping in your two pence worth on anything that does not add anything positive to the forum but negativility.

If any one should leave its you and your pointless boring comments that do nothing to help out people.
Legal or not. I feel you have no technical ability or a willingness to learn or contribute.

I've not once read anything useful from you to help other members.
You just chip in and moan.

Your a grumpy old man. That occasionaly posts interesting news about new ebike releases but thats it.

Sick of it.

{COMMENTS REMOVED}

end quote:



really? well that makes me feel MUCH better!lol As for the constant old man digs I am in my late 50's and will happily go toe to toe with any man that wants to throw expletives at me..Such a brave keyboard warrior! Pond slime more like.....

EDIT:

your post has already been copied and sent to moderator. so your editing out of expletives a little late? You think you can come on to an open forum repeatedly call me and others ****? well you may be in for a surprise sonny jim

 

[flecc]

The simple fact is that times are changing. We've had a long period of freedom during which overpowered and over assist speed bikes could be freely used without risk. Indeed in 2006/7 the best selling quality e-bike was a 22 mph assist model with 1000 watts peak power, and about a quarter of this forum's early membership rode one! David Henshaw mentioned above by 10mph still rides his and I owned one myself.

The change now is that some police traffic department officers are more aware of the law and are taking action. The case of the 300 watt bike being prosecuted by the London Metropolitan Police that has been posted on recently is not the only one, since another prosecution is being attempted by another city police force traffic officer currently, this one sub judice at present so not for discussion.

Clearly the days of total freedom are over and we at going to have to accept that e-bikes must have a power rating of no more than 250 watts and have a 15 mph assist limit, the latter with a 10% tolerance to give around 17 mph safe maximum.

Although there is a prospect of more power being allowed by the EU, this will be a long time coming, more like years than months if it's accepted. Even then there is only a possibility of the UK accepting it, they may well not. There is no chance of an assist speed increase.

It's not my job to police this law, it's up to others what they do, but I do think the promotion of illegal bikes needs to stop now that the authorities are more aware. It would be best if they were not on sale at all, but if sold, their illegality must be a headline promotional matter, not one to be buried in small print. Likewise, e-bike authorities like David Henshaw should stop encouraging illegal use, something he has previously often done within A to B Magazine.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Dave, please can you use line breaks or something!

I would be seriously interested to learn how those EN tests are executed and 'passed' as I have a nagging doubt that in reality theres some fudge going on...I have my doubts that any manufacturer using one of the freely available standard Chinese controllers can pass the test.

I think its only Wisper who currently have a new 'slow power ramp' controller that could possibly pass at the level of current draw in use today.

Also, the test is flawed as it only calls for a static start test to measure power, it does not measure during a hill climb where the bike is already in motion and so drawing full power....I bet there's more than a 250w draw!

I think this is the third or fourth time I've asked but what is the controller current limit on your bikes?

NRG.....I did reply with the current of our controllers perhaps it missed your radar,they are 12amp....we did experiment with a 16amp controller on one prototype...it made the motor noisy,halved the range and in all honesty didn't improve the hillclimbing ability that much...it would have required a retest at TUV China which is expensive,so all in all we rejected it. The bike concerned was our recent ECO bike which is so nice to ride that I didn't want to change anything... that expression 'don't sort what don't need sorting'
With regard to your very technically able reply,you are totally missing the point....IF THE BIKE HAS AN EN15194 CERTIFICATE IT IS LEGAL TO RIDE IN THE UK....whatever fudging may be happening in China is irrelevant unless you want to rewrite the EU directive and challenge the mighty TUV organisation. It may be technically interesting to investigate the legality of controller amperage v motor power and I am sure some out there are cheating but as long as you have that certificate you are UK legal and to most people that is all important especially if you are the poor guy who is being prosecuted for an illegal bike being hit by a bus that started this thread.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[Cakey]

Police in my area are more concerned over the Pasty tax. Not road tax

 

[Scottyf]

really? well that makes me feel MUCH better!lol As for the constant old man digs I am in my late 50's and will happily go toe to toe with any man that wants to throw expletives at me..

I wouldnt fight you, thats a silly idea. Its merely an expressive word. A bad one admitadly. But sometimes i just don't think you add anything to the forum other than negativity sometimes. If your not going to help then don't post. Just dont critise everything anyone else is doing.

your post has already been copied and sent to moderator. so your editing out of expletives a little late? You think you can come on to an open forum repeatedly call me and others ****? well you may be in for a surprise sonny jim

Good, rather go out with a bang anyway.

There are some truly decent people with creative and brilliant minds that enjoy something different.
I've enjoyed learning from members like D8veh, Flecc, NRG and a host of others that have offered advice that would simply take to long to learn on my own.

 

[eddieo]

Even more off topic drivel.......and another informative thread descends into nonsense

I have edited your work of genius back into my post

 

[amigafan2003]

Even more off topic drivel.......and another informative thread descends into nonsense

Yes, and you're posting in it - what a co-incidence

 

[Scottyf]

Even more off topic drivel.......and another informative thread descends into nonsense

I have edited your work of genius back into my post

With both you an Indalo the main instigators of it.
Your both **. Mainly Indalo who seemed to go off on a rant about other memebers to start with and you jumping on the band wagon.

 

[donkeydoo]

IGood, rather go out with a bang anyway.

Scottyf. IMAO (Got to luv ya man). Quite new to this forum but in essence you are right. I'm going to start a thread Bring back Scotty before he goes the way of D8veh.

 

[Jimod]

OK, off topic I know. Eddio are you really in your late 50s? I was sure you were in your late 60s. I've no idea why but I thought you had posted that. You're not subtracting years are old boy?

 

[Scottyf]

I wont go anywhere unless i'm booted out. I've since found the ignore button on the forum and will be using it accordingly.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The simple fact is that times are changing. We've had a long period of freedom during which overpowered and over assist speed bikes could be freely used without risk. Indeed in 2006/7 the best selling quality e-bike was a 22 mph assist model with 1000 watts peak power, and about a quarter of this forum's early membership rode one! David Henshaw mentioned above by 10mph still rides his and I owned one myself.

The change now is that some police traffic department officers are more aware of the law and are taking action. The case of the 300 watt bike being prosecuted by the London Metropolitan Police that has been posted on recently is not the only one, since another prosecution is being attempted by another city police force traffic officer currently, this one sub judice at present so not for discussion.

Clearly the days of total freedom are over and we at going to have to accept that e-bikes must have a power rating of no more than 250 watts and have a 15 mph assist limit, the latter with a 10% tolerance to give around 17 mph safe maximum.

Although there is a prospect of more power being allowed by the EU, this will be a long time coming, more like years than months if it's accepted. Even then there is only a possibility of the UK accepting it, they may well not. There is no chance of an assist speed increase.

It's not my job to police this law, it's up to others what they do, but I do think the promotion of illegal bikes needs to stop now that the authorities are more aware. It would be best if they were not on sale at all, but if sold, their illegality must be a headline promotional matter, not one to be buried in small print. Likewise, e-bike authorities like David Henshaw should stop encouraging illegal use, something he has previously often done within A to B Magazine.
.

Flecc...in one posting you have communicated brilliantly the current state of play, and unless others wake up and quickly there will be many more prosecutions,at some point there will be a big one when someone is seriously hurt and then governments do what they always do- react retrospectively and with knee jerk reactions-these bikes are getting banned in cities all over China now,in China they don't act mamby-pamby they pick the bike up and throw it in a skip,they don't care if its a £3.5k Kalkhoff!!!
I understand that 50 cycles are now specifying in the specification that the bikes are for private land use only but that should be big and bold on the home page,to leave no possible doubt.
If people think I am taking this strong stance as an 'anti 50 cycles' then they are wrong,I am very concerned that if there is a serious accident they will ban these electric bikes completely unless ALL OF THEM GO THROUGH AN SVA TEST AND ARE TREATED LIKE MINI MOTORBIKES-there is a precedent here they did this to the kit car industry and it removed all the independence similar to that which we all currently enjoy,many small kit car companies ceased trading and now the SVA test is both expensive and a nightmare.
The selfish few could ruin this e-bike experience for the majority....what particularly concerns me is that some Kalkhoff owners with 350 watt motors may not realise they are being selfish.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[eddieo]

scottyf, I tell you what, its just a suggestion you understand...... instead of wasting your yuf on ere with us old uns, why don't you go back to college, get some training (and some manners) and a proper profession. Then you will be able to afford some of the nice things in life like us grown ups......


I see in you a glimmer of hope......this does not extend to some of the company you keep. if your outburst this morning is due to Tourette syndrome let me know and I will edit post....