How on earth does he get away with this?

[git-r]

Sorry to disappoint you but I see nor hear of any push by the e-bike industry,certainly no lobby for change. I think most of us take matters retrospectively and make the most of the law as we personally interpret it,
I personally think the 15 mph limit is at a poor threshold point,it's just on the cruise for most of us....but that limit is becoming a worldwide limit so it's almost impossible that the UK will increase it.
As a designer it's interesting to work within the law,it makes us achieve the maximum within the limits of the rule,The performance of these bikes has been transformed over the last 5 years....5 years ago the Dutch style bikes weighed 30 kgs,all tail end heavy,basic PAS control,low torque motors.
Now we have the weight down to low 20 kgs,better battery positions,the King Display gives a lot more control and the BPM motors have much higher low speed torque. During that time prices have remained pretty much the same. What will these bikes be like 5 years hence?
KudosDave

That's a shame. So there is no push from the BEBTA for S pedelecs then?

Understood about the development and completely agree.. Look at motorsport, that's where we 're starting to see the potential.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Thanks for the reply. Maybe it's difficult for the BEBA to really push something?

I disagree though, one day it will happen.. I hope

BEBA has no agenda to lobby for S-class in the UK,I think they have run out of energy to achieve full speed throttles.
Only if the government can figure out a way of taxing pedelecs....maybe a higher tax level the higher the cutoff speed. We should be grateful the limit in Japan and China is 200 watts and 12 mph,pretty much ignored in China but they do have a mercenary way of enforcing it,if they choose to do so.
Actually Motorsport has been the beneficiary of the governments punitive charges of SVA kit cars,it is so expensive to get a kit car registered that many are circuit racers only to be trailed to races.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

What's the difference between that and other controllers limited at their display consoles, or even unplugging the limit wire on your typical china controller? Have you ever played with a cycle analyst? Reprogramming the speed limit from the console is not something you can easily do while riding.

I'm just interpreting what the law might say about this method, not about what is logical.
.

 

[danielrlee]

I'm just interpreting what the law might say about this method, not about what is logical.
.

As far as I can see in this limited configuration and with an under rated motor, there is little difference between a Bomber and many other UK legal ebikes.

It's quite funny really. For all the discussion of laws and legality that goes on here, we still haven't a clue between us, have we?

 

[NeilP]

I also think the reason many have for frowning at illegal stealth bikes is the bad name they could give all e-bikes when used by irresponsible types. Unfortunately there's plenty of those, as well as those who behave well.
.

Agree with that totally. I see more normal "pedal only "MTB cyclists acting like total hooligans on the cycle tracks , than any of the riders I know and see here in jersey that have greater than 250watt e-bikes.
I the past 5 years I have completed over 16,000 miles on mine, commotion every day to work..often slower than pedal cyclists on the cycle tracks, when the conditions dictate. And my bike is (well, was. ) more powerful than the Stealth. Running at 100 volts it was doing bursts of 140 amps..that is 14kW. I tuned it down to about 8kW.

Never had an issue, accident or even incident in all those miles. I do to have motorbike, but I use it as a different means of transport..so no 'frustrated motorcycle rider syndrome' If I want to go on the motorbike I can

Now the whole issue of illegal bikes has become more known about in Jersey, I have stopped riding it and gone back to the car for every day commuting, and turned the bike down to 250 watt and 15mph PAS only ..which makes it pretty pointless vehicle for my needs.


But even Kudos admits that people complain about the speed limit power cut out issue..and try to get around it..and then they are happy..so they in effect now have illegal bikes too

 

[turbo911]

Turbo....are you saying that you bought a Stealth without understanding the pedelec law? You spent £10k without figuring out where you could ride this motorbike? Have you registered it as a motorbike?
These bikes make a noise like a load of circular saws,I just cannot believe you haven't been challenged riding it. Down our way on cycle trails you would be stopped constantly by true cyclists,quite forcibly at times!!!!!!
No right thinking person could ever consider a 5kw machine as a bicycle,it is a motorbike.
The problem we all have about you guys riding these bikes on cycle trails or the highway is the 'tarred with the same brush syndrome'....I get a lot of enjoyment legally riding my legal e-bike along the seafront,the oyster trail is a delight from Whistable to Margate. Myself and fellow cyclists had to lobby the council to get the right to do so,we join with dog walkers,ramblers and kids,it requires consideration by all to make it work safely....it only needs one high powered electric motorbike to cause the council to ban electric bikes and spoil enjoyment for many.
Sometimes I get questioned about the legality of using a pedelec on the seafront,I explain the rules and power limits carefully and with courtesy walkers are often very interested.
KudosDave

i would get challenged quite forcibly, what a joke if any one tried that it would end in tears and as for they sound like a load of circular saws utter rubbish, do you drive on public roads ?? have you ever broken the speed limit has anyone every forcibly stopped you and told you your braking the law and your going to spoil it for others hmmmmm...

 

[flecc]

It's quite funny really. For all the discussion of laws and legality that goes on here, we still haven't a clue between us, have we?

For the less usual and possibly marginal, that's true, but of course that's the vague nature of the law that is to blame. Solicitors will be equally clueless, which is why the lawmakers, the DfT themselves, usually state in their guidance notes that the document is only their view of the law and it needs to be tested by a court to be certain.

But for most commercial pedelecs it's not true, since they very clearly comply with the law. In this instance for example, needing tools to alter the assist speed control is clearly compliant with the law, since that is modification of the construction.
.

 

[flecc]

Agree with that totally. I see more normal "pedal only "MTB cyclists acting like total hooligans on the cycle tracks , than any of the riders I know and see here in jersey that have greater than 250watt e-bikes.

True everywhere I think. There's a parallel of this between the enthusiast car drivers and the run-of-the-mill drivers on our roads who scrape through their driving tests. It's the latter who do the most stupid things on our roads.
.

 

[craiggor]

For the less usual and possibly marginal, that's true, but of course that's the vague nature of the law that is to blame. Solicitors will be equally clueless, which is why the lawmakers, the DfT themselves, usually state in their guidance notes that the document is only their view of the law and it needs to be tested by a court to be certain.

But for most commercial pedelecs it's not true, since they very clearly comply with the law. In this instance for example, needing tools to alter the assist speed control is clearly compliant with the law, since that is modification of the construction.
.

Are cycle analysts, KT displays and the like(speed adjustable by the rider) legal ? Are bikes that can be fitted with a dongle legal ?

 

[flecc]

Are cycle analysts, KT displays and the like(speed adjustable by the rider) legal ? Are bikes that can be fitted with a dongle legal ?

I think the first can easily be challenged at law and I don't see them as being legal. The DfT appears to support my view with this statement:

The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

Dongles are definitely illegal, they are a modification of the construction intended to breach the law.
.

 

[craiggor]

My KT display won't let me go over the legal limit,fitted with 36 v battery,even when I alter the display. If I fitted a 48 v battery it would go over the legal limit.I knew fitting a bike with a dongle is illegal but is a bike capable of been fitted with one illegal.

 

[flecc]

My KT display won't let me go over the legal limit,fitted with 36 v battery,even when I alter the display. If I fitted a 48 v battery it would go over the legal limit.I knew fitting a bike with a dongle is illegal but is a bike capable of been fitted with one illegal.

I don't know the KT display so was misled by your earlier post into thinking it could be programmed to illegality. Clearly your bike is legal in the KT display respect. The battery voltage is irrelevant since the law says the bike must have a manufacturer label affixed with information which includes the standard battery voltage. That of course is to prevent the use of higher voltages to defeat the law.

A bike capable of being fitted with a dongle can be entirely legal since the dongle illegality is based on the modification, as I posted. Without the dongle attached it isn't modified.
.

 

[craiggor]

I don't know the KT display so was misled by your earlier post into thinking it could be programmed to illegality. Clearly your bike is legal in the KT display respect. The battery voltage is irrelevant since the law says the bike must have a manufacturer label affixed with information which includes the standard battery voltage. That of course is to prevent the use of higher voltages to defeat the law.

A bike capable of being fitted with a dongle can be entirely legal since the dongle illegality is based on the modification, as I posted. Without the dongle attached it isn't modified.
.

The KT display can be programmed to go over the legal limit,with a 48 v battery.And it could be programmed to to cut off at the legal limit,with 48v.so my bike 36 v KT display ,because of the display is ilegal.But a bike capable of been fitted with a dongle is legal.I don't know why I tried to stay within the law.

 

[flecc]

so my bike 36 v KT display ,because of the display is ilegal.

No. it's not illegal because of the display, since the labelling law restricts it to 36 volts and you say the display cannot make it illegally fast on 36 volts.

It seems you are entirely legal but could be illegal with a dongle fitted.
.

 

[craiggor]

No. it's not illegal because of the display, since the labelling law restricts it to 36 volts and you say the display cannot make it illegally fast on 36 volts.

It seems you are entirely legal but could be illegal with a dongle fitted.
.

So programmable displays legal if fitted to 250w @ 36v.

 

[flecc]

So programmable displays legal if fitted to 250w @ 36v.

If they don't permit you to program to over 15.5 mph assist on the manufacturer's voltage, as you said yours won't.

In other words, if they are legal as supplied and cannot be programmed to illegal without altering something else as well like battery voltage, they are legal.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

i would get challenged quite forcibly, what a joke if any one tried that it would end in tears and as for they sound like a load of circular saws utter rubbish, do you drive on public roads ?? have you ever broken the speed limit has anyone every forcibly stopped you and told you your braking the law and your going to spoil it for others hmmmmm...

Quite amusing really...our parent company is Rally Design,which came out of my hobby of road rallying....I was on the last road rally in the UK,clocked at 143mph by a police speed trap driving an Escort Rs1800 at 3 am in the middle of East Anglia. The police were at the finish hotel,severely criticised what we were doing and told us it had to stop,road rallying never happened again and the sport finished.
That is my point,no holier than thou attitude,we spoilt the sport for ourselves,electric motorbikes making that high pitched grinding noise riding along cycle tracks will inevitably attract the attention of the police and we will all be negatively affected.
But that clearly doesn't bother you!!!!!
By the way I wasn't the quickest, a fellow competitor topped 150mph.
It is interesting that my insurance company perceive e-bikes a higher risk at 15 mph mixing it with the public,than WRC rally cars coming down a forest track at 150 plus.
KudosDave

 

[danielrlee]

I think the first can easily be challenged at law and I don't see them as being legal. The DfT appears to support my view with this statement:

The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

Dongles are definitely illegal, they are a modification of the construction intended to breach the law.
.

I guess that's where our interpretations of the law differ. A Cycle Analyst does not equate to an 'off-road button' in my eyes.

I'm also now wondering what the difference is between 'dongle capable', and say, a speed limiting reed switch supplied without the means to defeat it.

 

[turbo911]

Quite amusing really...our parent company is Rally Design,which came out of my hobby of road rallying....I was on the last road rally in the UK,clocked at 143mph by a police speed trap driving an Escort Rs1800 at 3 am in the middle of East Anglia. The police were at the finish hotel,severely criticised what we were doing and told us it had to stop,road rallying never happened again and the sport finished.
That is my point,no holier than thou attitude,we spoilt the sport for ourselves,electric motorbikes making that high pitched grinding noise riding along cycle tracks will inevitably attract the attention of the police and we will all be negatively affected.
But that clearly doesn't bother you!!!!!
By the way I wasn't the quickest, a fellow competitor topped 150mph.
It is interesting that my insurance company perceive e-bikes a higher risk at 15 mph mixing it with the public,than WRC rally cars coming down a forest track at 150 plus.
KudosDave

thats so amusing I'm in stitches i can't reply at the moment.....

 

[danielrlee]

To those speaking of high power bikes that sound like circular saws, are you referring to chain driven mid-drives?

The Stealth Bomber has a DD hub motor that is quieter than all legal geared hub motors I've ever come across and doesn't make any more noise than the tyres do as they roll.