Of course you can. You can benchmark against anything. The theory of ideality is a basic tool for product design. That's normally how you start. "What would be th perfect product? How does ours compare with that? What can we do to get closer?"
Has anyone heard of or tried Toseven mid drive?
- Thread starter Domm
- Start date
There is a post with copy and paste quick review of the 750W DM-01 on this link:
https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/anyone-know-about-tried-toseven-mid-drive.119395/page-3#post-1757385
It does not look like the products are ready for sale yet.
https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/anyone-know-about-tried-toseven-mid-drive.119395/page-3#post-1757385
It does not look like the products are ready for sale yet.
.
In my comment after that copy/past micro review, you can read that the DM-01 was wrong mounted, because the bikeframe was modified. Also the real source where that motor came from wasn't clear.
So your conclusion is very premature and based on practical nothing.
That message on Endless is a short summerize of all fora that wrote about To7.
It is better to subscribe to the real source than made a conclusion on a brief summary.
I hadn't planned to subscribe, but because you refer to my post on Endless I feel the need to respond on your conclusion.
In my comment after that copy/past micro review, you can read that the DM-01 was wrong mounted, because the bikeframe was modified. Also the real source where that motor came from wasn't clear.
So your conclusion is very premature and based on practical nothing.
That message on Endless is a short summerize of all fora that wrote about To7.
It is better to subscribe to the real source than made a conclusion on a brief summary.
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I have been interested in what to7 do since the start of the thread, so I am not hostile to what they do.
However, I ran into a spat with their rep, AlexfNoble, in this thread.
I did make some commercial enquiries about their products, not directly with alexfnoble@toseven because I dread having to deal directly with him, but with other sources on alibaba, the conclusion above was my own.
of course you are right, people should draw their own conclusions.
You are now member of this forum, so welcome. I look forward to see your posts.
If you are interested for selling To7, imho it may be better to deal with To7 directly.
This because you can never can know what agreements a third party has made with To7.
As said on Endless To7 had made customized DM batches for retailers.
It was asked somewhere else 3 weeks ago and it was supposed to be end of april for the DM02 250w 48v. Also 1 week ago they said they are about to open a store on AliExpress to solve the immediate supply chain issues. Maybe the 48v will show up there, i don't know. I'm waiting for independant reviews and will decide if go Tongsheng or Toseven.
By the the way, i don't how to say it but what is going on here ???
I understand some of you have some knowledge and it is great but you have way too much issue and are way too much toxic... it's so sad
Imho Alex the sales manager isn't the same as Alex the public forum member.
This imho a sales manager has different objectives than a forum member.
for some reason when dealing with people you have to stay stone cold . especially when you want to sell something and they are not dumb...if he is who he is he should stay away from any quarrel and just inform us of what we want to know . plain and simple . nothing moreIt was asked somewhere else 3 weeks ago and it was supposed to be end of april for the DM02 250w 48v. Also 1 week ago they said they are about to open a store on AliExpress to solve the immediate supply chain issues. Maybe the 48v will show up there, i don't know. I'm waiting for independant reviews and will decide if go Tongsheng or Toseven.
By the the way, i don't how to say it but what is going on here ???
I understand some of you have some knowledge and it is great but you have way too much issue and are way too much toxic... it's so sad
How hard is it for the sales manager to call someone up at the factory and ask to whatapps a few pictures?
If the thing is ready for sale, then why should it matter to release the pics a few days before they ship?
I buy from China, Taiwan and Singapore for 50 years or so, I always found the Chinese people delightful and easy to do business with. They don't normally impose, they are keen to communicate, anything you need to help you to buy. Their approach is so efficient that justifies their success.
This time, their sales manager is a Brit. It should have been a good thing but it turned out not so. Alex would like to change the Chinese marketing method. Control and conquer the British way? Control information, release only to the selected few. Then there is his vision of new infrastructure, distribution network, warranty and return etc. He thinks obviously big.
I much prefer the old Chinese way to be honest.
imho these assumptions are based on personal opinion, experiences and expectations.
Of course there is nothing wrong with that and maybe you could be right, but as long as all information comes only from To7 (To7 isn't Alex only) and not from independent sources, it remains guessing what we can expect from the DM series. Time will tell.
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Heres a think, arising from a thread complaining about TS cover screws. Are you going to use Ph, pz or hex socket screws on the to7? The latter are preferable for long term maintenance.
Ps I hope this isn't seen as trolling, others offering constructive criticism have been labelled trolls.
Ps I hope this isn't seen as trolling, others offering constructive criticism have been labelled trolls.
Thats why product development can be so difficult. You have to identify a niche and there are a lot of factor's at play. Currently it's getting even more difficult in this segment because by the time you buy a motor and a battery you are probably £600 deep without the bike.
Then you have people thinking should i just stretch to £1200 buy a quality second hand ebike? Of which there are more and more of on the market.
Or a new decathlon ebike for £800-£1000
Then there are loans and the cycle to work scheme, (you might me part of not sure)
The main thing any serious cyclist wants is dependability. But dependable and cheap rarely go hand in hand.
As everyone knows cost reduction in manufacturing is achieved through scale. For any start up theres a lot initial expense to swallow before you reach any kind of scale. I think we are less and less likely to see companies feel that the conversion market is a risk worth taking given the potential rewards.. The vast majority now aim exclusively at bike manufacturers
neither your DM-01 and DM-02 ideally suit bike manufacturers though. If I wanted a CD drive, I would choose frame mount instead of bottom bracket mount. I was thinking of using the TSDZ3 some time ago because the price was very good. At the time, I paid nearly double for the Bafang Maxdrive but now, I could go to Ananda, Shengyi and a number of others for a good frame mount TS kit.
If I want the torque sensor for a hub drive, I can easily replace the cadence sensor with an off the shelf bottom bracket torque sensor. The additional cost is not significant and support overhead is modest, they all have external bearings.
In the kit market, the Aikema TSDZ2B and Bafang BBSes still set the bar pretty high on value for money. Your DM01 needs to be as robust as Bafang BBS01B and sell for the same price and with throttle, your DM02 has to be as robust as BBS02 and sell for the same price.
I wouldn't want to do your job.
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In response to the above i am not the sales manager. I have a very different role but do engage with a lot of distributers to facilitate sales
But yes since you are in UK........
Again i have to call you out a bit on some hypocrisy here. Im actually trying to look after distributers and end users.( you would know this but you are the only distributer who ignored my contact) and end the race to the bottom of who can make the cheapest motor.
We intend to sell a range of motors that suit the average user to enthusiasts. It doesn't matter what level you buy in at everyone expects a quality product
Note my first post on our intentions.
If your are going to spend $260 on a motor for most i think they would rather spend $300 on better quality. Have a warranty. Have access to servicing and repairs
You post a picture of a $900 motor and tell us its the competition.. you say you want better product. More reliable. Innovative but you prefer the old way of doing things... well if you want better im afraid it costs a little more, and things have to be done a little different.. you said that yourself
What i can promise our customers is that we will use our profits to continually invest in quality and innovation.
Please recognise all of this takes very significant initial investment. Im definitely never going to apologise for trying to do things better
We are taking notes on everything shared here. We pay a lot of attention to people's recommendations and a lot has been implemented into the new motors. Of course there is always more and we will continue to listen
To address the single fail we have had so far.
We have had a lot of discussion with the end user. He had some lugs on his frame that pushed against the casing of the motor. It was tightened in against one of these. The way the load was transferred once mounted and tightened amplified the problem and it split the casing.
He reached out to psw power and their response was essentially "not our problem"
We became aware of the issue he had and even though it was not caused by a faulty motor we are replacing it in good faith and have updated our mounting instructions so that its highlighted to buyers to avoid this.
I think that if you actually take the time to engage me on how we intend to do things you will realise its better for everyone. For you, your customers and the environment..
Im not nearly as corporate as you suggest or maybe fear.. im just passionate about the projects i work on
But yes since you are in UK........
Again i have to call you out a bit on some hypocrisy here. Im actually trying to look after distributers and end users.( you would know this but you are the only distributer who ignored my contact) and end the race to the bottom of who can make the cheapest motor.
We intend to sell a range of motors that suit the average user to enthusiasts. It doesn't matter what level you buy in at everyone expects a quality product
Note my first post on our intentions.
If your are going to spend $260 on a motor for most i think they would rather spend $300 on better quality. Have a warranty. Have access to servicing and repairs
You post a picture of a $900 motor and tell us its the competition.. you say you want better product. More reliable. Innovative but you prefer the old way of doing things... well if you want better im afraid it costs a little more, and things have to be done a little different.. you said that yourself
What i can promise our customers is that we will use our profits to continually invest in quality and innovation.
Please recognise all of this takes very significant initial investment. Im definitely never going to apologise for trying to do things better
We are taking notes on everything shared here. We pay a lot of attention to people's recommendations and a lot has been implemented into the new motors. Of course there is always more and we will continue to listen
To address the single fail we have had so far.
We have had a lot of discussion with the end user. He had some lugs on his frame that pushed against the casing of the motor. It was tightened in against one of these. The way the load was transferred once mounted and tightened amplified the problem and it split the casing.
He reached out to psw power and their response was essentially "not our problem"
We became aware of the issue he had and even though it was not caused by a faulty motor we are replacing it in good faith and have updated our mounting instructions so that its highlighted to buyers to avoid this.
I think that if you actually take the time to engage me on how we intend to do things you will realise its better for everyone. For you, your customers and the environment..
Im not nearly as corporate as you suggest or maybe fear.. im just passionate about the projects i work on
Alex, I am not the kind of guy who would rush to sell something new. The last time I did so was with the Bewo kit for the pedelecs show in Redbrige, 2013.
I rushed it out and sold my first crank drive bike for £799.
I still service them but I would not do so again.
I would certainly buy a sample of your kits after seeing reviews, but not volume after reading a leaflet. By the time your brand becomes a big success, a lot of water would have flown under the bridge.
I do like the list of things to7 proposes to do to distinguish itself against the TSDZ2 though. A newly designed torque sensor is one of them but no one has seen it yet.
I found that list over on ES or pedelecs.de . I can repost it here if you want me to.
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Ofcourse you may ignore private messages from To7 to you as distributer, but imho a forum isn't the place to discuss that.
I can imagine too that you are sceptical to be a distributer from an new unknown BB motor.
But wouldn't it be better to discuss that with To7 directly. They must convince you about their product, quality and guarantees. I can imagine that To7 doesn't want to do this in a public forum.
A public forum is for general discussion.
That comparision list of pedelecforum was published too on discord.
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I came across the list of things that toseven proposed to do to beat the Tongsheng TSDZ2.
Here you can.
I asked Alex if he wants me to repost it. He said yes.
I
I appreciate the comment but the fact is if you don't join Discord, you can't access the posts.
Here you can.
I asked Alex if he wants me to repost it. He said yes.
I
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