Has anyone heard of or tried Toseven mid drive?

[Woosh]

The heat issue of Tsdz2 was there too with factory firmware

statistically not important - I replace maybe one a two controllers a year under warranty and Tongsheng give me spares anyway. Same with the blue gears.The things about the TSDZ2 that bug me is the play in the bottom bracket and water ingress. The main gear shaft needs extra ballbearings.

 

[elinx]

... I replace maybe one a two controllers a year ..... play in the bottom bracket and water ingress. The main gear shaft needs extra ballbearings.

It isn''t the controller that breaks by heat but the motor will demagnetized by high temperatures and will lost power.

The main gear shaft is really soft metal and has two weak circlip grooves.
Because the shaft is undersized the ballbearings are wobbling.
The easiest way to resolve this a bit is adding two or three extra bearings on the shaft on the other side of the grooves



If you have a look at the ToSeven DM series exploded view drawing you will see that the construction is a lot different from Tsdz2 and has on both sides of the shaft a bearing

 

[Woosh]

interesting.
And thank you for the picture. Worth a thousand words.
I never had to replace a motor because of high temperature in or out of guarantee and I never had to replace a bottom bracket spindle because the steel is soft, in or out of guarantee. I wonder how many motors and bottom bracket shafts Tongsheng had to replace.

Can you give me the links to follow up those cases?

 

[Woosh]

I followed up elinx link:

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/tsdz2-baugleich-sfm-du-250-tongsheng-schachner-mittelmotor-reparatur-und-einstellungsthread.50376/page-16#post-1264791
cejean made an interesting comment in the post. His kit did only 40km. I would have replaced the kit for the guy and apologise...

 

[elinx]

....
I never had to replace a motor because of high temperature in or out of guarantee and I never had to replace a bottom bracket spindle because the steel is soft, in or out of guarantee. I wonder how many motors and bottom bracket shafts Tongsheng had to replace.

Can you give me the links to follow up those cases?

With normal road use you mostly don't get problems.
Demagnetizing will happen with long runs mountain up with high outside temperatures (as in Italy, Spain, Portugal) and the degredation goes relative slow til the motor burns out.
Breakage of the shaft was mostly with eMTB use and jumps standing on the pedals. And mostly with a 100mm or 120mm shaft.

The Tsdz2 wiki has summarized most problems and their solutions.
- broken axle
- demagnetized motor

I understand that ToSeven has different bare motors for every power option and not only a higher battery Voltage for higher power output.
Also the motor is tight fit inside the case for DM-01 and DM-02. This should give a better cooling than the Tsdz2.
So if they have a temperature sensor too to limit the power with high temperatures they have a solid base.

 

[saneagle]

Blimey that's a long time. Which one GNG mid motor is it? This one? Why has your GNG lasted so long? How many bearing changes? Can't say I'm looking forward to changing the bearings on my BBS01B - there's no indication yet that it needs that doing.

New 250W (Brushed)

New 250W (Brushed)

gngebike.com

It's lasted so long because it sat in a nice dry garage for most of its life. People keep mentioning how long things last, but they never say how much they used them. nearly everything lasts for ever if you don't use it. This one:

36V350W 48V500W 2015 gen 2

36V350W 48V500W 2015 gen 2

gngebike.com

 

[elinx]

...
cejean made an interesting comment . ....

Yes you can insert some brass sheets too between the bearing and shaft, but some extra bearings to give the shaft a lot more support is imho easier.

 

[saneagle]

I paid $25 more for my BBS01B 48V 15A compared to my TSDZ2 48V 15A with throttle but over the years, support incidents are extremely rare. So from that point of view, the BBS01B 48V 15A is dependable and cheap.
It is my benchmark product.

Not very waterproof though. You don't ride in the rain. BBS01 is maybe good compared with other crank motors, but not so good for UK commuting unless you like to do some maintenance.

 

[Woosh]

, but not so good for UK commuting unless you like to do some maintenance.

most of my kit sales are Mxus and Shengyi hub motors.

 

[soundwave]

Between 6,000 and 12,000 miles on one set of bearings?!??!?

yes as i service everything inc opening up the motor to re grease the cogs but George henry got the same or more miles out of his Yamaha motor got peter to service it and good as new and he still has his original batt as well.

tho i have changed the bearing in the ses wheel about 35 times as just replace it as soon as it makes a noise as a pack of ten is about 5 quid

 

[Bogmonster666]

It isn''t the controller that breaks by heat but the motor will demagnetized by high temperatures and will lost power.

This is exactly the problem, it's really hard to know when things are getting too hot. The person discharging a battery at 18 amps was certainly not operating the motor in typical conditions....and I don't live in mountains...

Does a 10 min blast on turbo up a steep hill at 65rpm on stock firmware start to overheat things? Ideally you would like to think not, what's the point in turbo if if just overheats the motor in 10 mins, but I really have no idea?

I'm sure that with osf it is very easy to overheat the motor. I suspect that it's also easy to overheat the motor on throttle.

I am already slightly uncomfortable so will be fitting a bigger cassette at the weekend to play it safe, and I think will look to improve thermal conductivity. It certainly isn't an ideal situation though, the problem is really the lack of certainty.

As for UK rain, I have only spent a couple of weeks in China and the rain was torrential for most of my stay.

EDIT: And I think people do some research, read some threads, hear about things like overhearing, and they get put off. Trouble is problems tend to get more noise than people who are having no issues. I suspect there are plenty of happy tsdz2 user's with no issues, but again it's the uncertainty aspect.

 

[elinx]

This is exactly the problem, it's really hard to know when things are getting too hot. The person discharging a battery at 18 amps was certainly not operating the motor in typical conditions....

The Tongsheng controller has a cutoff at 20A, so with stock firmware it is easy to run 18A without a problem.
Because there is a wide airgap between motor and case you can't feel the temperature of the motor by hand, that means a warm feel is a very hot motor.
With OSF you can limit power and current to reasonable values and also limit the speed to 25km/h. Also the pseudo FOC does help to be more effective for silency and heat and prevent wear of the blue gear. Also with a stock display it is impossible to change this without PC and STlink.
The only thing I see here is "more power" with OSF, but that is imho only said by people who have not been interested in the real benefits of OSF.

 

[AJ_P]

We intend to sell a range of motors that suit the average user to enthusiasts. It doesn't matter what level you buy in at everyone expects a quality product

Note my first post on our intentions.

If your are going to spend $260 on a motor for most i think they would rather spend $300 on better quality. Have a warranty. Have access to servicing and repairs

You post a picture of a $900 motor and tell us its the competition.. you say you want better product. More reliable. Innovative but you prefer the old way of doing things... well if you want better im afraid it costs a little more, and things have to be done a little different.. you said that yourself

What i can promise our customers is that we will use our profits to continually invest in quality and innovation.

Please recognise all of this takes very significant initial investment. Im definitely never going to apologise for trying to do things better


We are taking notes on everything shared here. We pay a lot of attention to people's recommendations and a lot has been implemented into the new motors. Of course there is always more and we will continue to listen

Alex,

I have two mountain bikes to convert and to that end I have just bought a Tongsheng 750w for my wife's bike. The reason for that decision was that it is probably the best match for her needs at the present time. It is predictable, tame and easy to learn to use safely. Anything else would put her off I believe.

I however require more grunt for mine and the lack of a torque sensor on the Bafang 750w model is putting me off a little such that I have been wondering if the Tongsheng would be man enough if I changed the gearing on the bike say for instance through a bigger cassette or smaller chainring, keep the front derailleur etc. I may well end up having to buy a Bafang anyway but needless to say your motor interests me being that spec wise, it would suit my needs.

Have you any idea when it will go on general sale and how much it is likely to cost? Where and when can I see the first reviews?

Thank's and I wish you well with this motor. I genuinely hope it is a good one at a price that people can afford to pay. That being the case it certainly would fill a gap.

Regards,

AJ

 

[Bogmonster666]

The Tongsheng controller has a cutoff at 20A

I believe, but could be wrong, that the @Woosh supplied tsdz2 motors are 15a? These are the 48v 250w variant woosh gets from the factory.

I agree that the OSF benefits I'm interested in are not more power:

1) Field weakening for higher cadence support.
2) Better motor control for less noise.
3) Better battery bar indication.
4) Soft cut-off at assistance limit.

What I don't want is more power....

I will flash osf when the warranty is almost out.

I have heard of people saying how hot the tsdz2 case has got, I can imagine the motor is glowing inside like a little sun.

 

[Woosh]

EDIT: And I think people do some research, read some threads, hear about things like overhearing, and they get put off. Trouble is problems tend to get more noise than people who are having no issues. I suspect there are plenty of happy tsdz2 user's with no issues, but again it's the uncertainty aspect.

agreed.

Woosh TSDZ2 cuts off at 15A.
10A average, 15A for short periods, is all the motor can take.
48V 15A is plenty enough for most people...

 

[Woosh]

Yes you can insert some brass sheets too between the bearing and shaft, but some extra bearings to give the shaft a lot more support is imho easier.

one of the guys used the word 'drop fit' to make the point. That made me smile.
You should invite more people from ES and pedelecs.de to come over here to liven things up.

 

[elinx]

.... 15A for short periods, is all the motor can take.
...

Precise, but because the biker must judge what a short time is and if he does this by feeling the temperature of the case, I can ensure you that with 15A for a long time the motor will demagnitize too after some time.

...the word 'drop fit' to make the point. ....

It describes exactly what was happen on the video.

I really hope that the formal Tongsheng engineer has improved that too with the new design of the ToSeven DM series.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Precise, but because the biker must judge what a short time is and if he does this by feeling the temperature of the case, I can ensure you that with 15A for a long time the motor will demagnitize too after some time.

And this is the crux, it's the uncertainty. Proper cooling and thermal monitoring are really the only solution. Assume 48v at 15a and 75% efficiency. That's a 180w heater in a small insulated box.

 

[Woosh]

All the motors face the same temperature challenge, elinx, but I will bear that in mind.
Demagnetisation at over 80 degrees C.
If anyone is worried, i would suggest they stick some irreversible temperature strips on their motor.
With hub geared motors, there is no such worries.

 

[Woosh]

I really hope that the formal Tongsheng engineer has improved that too with the new design of the ToSeven DM series.

now you can see why we pressed alexfnoble for pictures of the DM-02 inside. I don't want a TSDZ2 copy.
We are still waiting.