Has anyone heard of or tried Toseven mid drive?

[Woosh]

They don't have any and have not shown any interest. I approached them with it years ago and they told me it wasnt part of the market they are interested in. Its not what they are focused on at all now. Right now you have us or cyc

may be because Tongsheng has never been a threat to their market share. As saneagle said, most people just want a dependable kit and for as little money as possible.
What kind of percentage do you think that the TS bottom bracket motors represent in the conversion market? whatever it is, it can't be big.

 

[Woosh]

Right now you have us or cyc

not quite though. Your motors are not shipping and you forgot to mention Aikema.
As I said before, if you are successful, Bafang will react. Even small firms like Bewo can add a torque sensor to their kits. I have had their kits for years, I know how to do it and it's really dead easy. The sensor can be one of many off the shelf. I guess the reason they don't want to is because the TSDZ2 is already sold too cheaply. Commercially speaking, you have very little headroom for following the TSDZ2 and the BBS02. They have years ahead in experience, large volumes and dealers already in place. You have one good engineer who made mistakes and blamed his boss. Outside the forums, who is going to be interested? and you have already got into spats with forum members who could work with you.

 

[guerney]

FYI @alexfnoble - Potential buyers will read this thread.

 

[pxl666]

If i have more pictures?

can you read English?

"
did you sell any motor ? do you know is anyone using it for mtb and can give honest opinion ? why didn't you bother to open motor and show some pictures from inside ? i don't recall from you a clear statement that motor has any thermal safety built in and will prevent itself from overheating . every modern smartphone is capable of delivering good quality video and you provided none showing motor installation , servicing or setting up things from display .
how do you want to convince me to spend 372$ over 275$ to get your motor over tsdz2 ? and i'm not eager to do so mostly because i hate large tv-like display ... why on earth there's not dz41 / vlcd10 / sw102 option to buy ???

 

[Bogmonster666]

I'm not feeling I'm getting anything much from this thread other than a headache and a sense of regret I ever starting to follow it.

When can we expect to see reviews of this product from a range of independent reviewers? I would like to think that functional questions could be resolved very quickly in this way. Questions of reliability and serviceability may take a bit longer but in six months time that picture should also be becoming clearer.

I wish To7 success for my own selfish reasons, as a consumer I think more competition is good. This is not the slickest product launch I have seen, fingers crossed that the product itself is more refined.

I agree that the DIY TS market is a bit niche, with the "MORE POWER" theme being the most pressing attribute many are after.

However, the premium pre-built market based around Bosch and similar are based on assistance multipliers and are successful.

Ideally I don't want to need to own circlip pliers, be able to press bearings out, or need to know how to use a multimeter to use my bike. But I'm also far too mean to drop three grand on an ebike - only to have some oik steal it with a battery angle grinder or a car jack.

I also want some exercise and to be able to cycle up the big hills that lead to my house with panniers full of shopping, or do a 70 mile leisure ride.

The Bafangs are unquestionably more reliable than the Tonshengs but they didn't meet my other criteria, they are too far away from assisted cycling for me. However, the Tongsheng motors need to be cared for, don't get them too wet, don't get them too hot, don't shout at them incase they get offended etc. They are never going to take over the world being so temperamental and unreliable. There is unquestionably room for technological improvement and I suspect there is a market, but it is likely to be a hard market to crack with a combination of a good product and the business acumen to market and sell it.

I'm not suggesting that Bafang are aiming for the wrong market, more that they have identified their market and dominated it - and all power to them.

I tend to feel the marketing needs to play to the products strengths and get pulled along with the success of the likes of Bosch and try and differentiate itself from the Bafangs. I think the marketing needs to focus on cyclists wanting some extra help, not people wanting a low powered electric moped experience, Bafang have that end of the market nailed. Trying to beat Bafang at their own game seams destined to failure imo.

I'm personally not interested in the dm-01, if the dm-02 can solve the water ingress, overheating, low cadence, wobbly axle, reliability nonsense of the TSDZ2 than I will sit up and pay attention. I think all of the main TSDZ2 shortcomings are solvable in a TSDZ2 sized package, not requiring some enormous motor slung under the frame. I want something that kicks in and assists me up the big hills and then fades away subtly when I'm back on the flat. I know that other people have different needs, but this is where I see a gap in the market.

 

[guerney]

I want something that kicks in and assists me up the big hills and then fades away subtly when I'm back on the flat.

Are there any motor kits activated by inclinometer?

 

[Bogmonster666]

Are there any motor kits activated by inclinometer?

Maybe you have found a simple solution to do away with that pesky torque sensor? How about adding a wind speed measuring thingy so assistance can be increased when cycling into a headwind. I know I'm increasing the design brief but let's shot for the stars...

 

[soundwave]

Maybe you have found a simple solution to do away with that pesky torque sensor? How about adding a wind speed measuring thingy so assistance can be increased when cycling into a headwind. I know I'm increasing the design brief but let's shot for the stars...

rip out the controller and use one of these https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

 

[Blacklite]

the benchmark for torque sensor in any low cost TS crank drive is the straightforward bafang bottom bracket torque sensor. Also, I'd like to see a cycloidal gearbox.

the king of the DIY install in a standard bottom bracket market is still very much Bafang BBSes. If someone started to cut into their market share, I am pretty sure they will release their TS versions.

So what you’ve described as the benchmark product doesn’t exist?

 

[soundwave]

the bbshd id the king of mid drive kits as easy to fit and download the software and get the programme cable for 20 quid and loads of set up advice on the net and of you go going 40mph its the only thing that can beat me and im not slow but i only have a locked 20a controller.

 

[saneagle]

Are there any motor kits activated by inclinometer?

Yes, there's a few. They normally call it a gyroscopic sensor. The sensor can indicate when you're gong up hill and the controller increases the power accordingly so that you don't have to do anything. Many of these bikes are kickstarter start-ups and new brands with phone apps. It's a great idea, but probably not very practical.. Everybody wants different power on different days depending on whether they want to go fast or slow, how tired or energetic they are so whatever the algorthims set in the controller might not suit. I like the idea of a simple slider, like a throttle without a spring, where you simply set the power you want, continuously adjustable between min and max. I've done that with speed control, but I'd rather have it with current (power) control. The first Storck Radaar had something like that - probably its best feature, but nobody noticed. That brings back forum memories. You would have loved it. This thread is tame by comparison.

 

[Woosh]

So what you’ve described as the benchmark product doesn’t exist?

You could put together such products without much difficulty.
They are also simple off the shelf products that have best track record of reliability.

 

[Blacklite]

You could put together such products without much difficulty. That's what state of the art or 'prior art' means in patents.
They are also simple off the shelf products that have best track record of reliability.

You can’t benchmark against something that doesn’t exist.
And then you conflate ”state of the art” to “prior art”.
Dig upwards mate.

 

[Woosh]

Dig upwards mate.

you've got me there. I did see my silly mistake and edited it out 2mn before you replied.
Of course if you redesign your torque sensor, you need benchmarks.

 

[Blacklite]

you've got me there. I did see my silly mistake and edited it out 2mn before you replied.
Of course if you redesign your torque sensor, you need benchmarks.

And having a benchmark that exists and isn’t a figment of someone imagination is also important.

 

[Woosh]

And having a benchmark that exists and isn’t a figment of someone imagination is also important.

I have sold 3 torque sensor kits for hub motors, the TSDZ2 and Bafang torque sensor. All use different principles. The Bafang is best, so it seems natural to me that if someone redesigns the torque sensor for the TSDZ2, they should make one that is as good as the Bafang or its cousins.
I particularly liked this design in my sport-ts bike, circa 2013, but its sales flopped:

This torque sensor is dead easy to fit. It has integrated controller:

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2019/tskit/tskit-800.jpg

Again, sales are not great and my supplier went out of business.
Torque sensors are a good subject but commercially? as saneagle said, people just want a dependable kit for as little money as possible.

 

[Blacklite]

I have sold 3 torque sensor kits for hub motors, the TSDZ2 and Bafang torque sensor. All use different principles. The Bafang is best, so it seems natural to me that if someone redesigns the torque sensor for the TSDZ2, they should make one that is as good as the Bafang or its cousins.
I particularly liked this design in my sport-ts bike, circa 2013, but its sales flopped:

So you have a torque sensor Bafang BBS series? Or just making stuff up?

 

[Woosh]

So you have a torque sensor Bafang BBS series? Or just making stuff up?

I used the Bafang MaxDrive in my Woosh Rambla. I know the MaxDrive better than the TSDZ2 because I repaired a few. Jim here repairs the TSDZ2. I am also going to sell a new TS kit this summer based on a cousin of the bafang bottom bracket torque sensor. Recently, I was looking into how one can retrofit TS to the BBS01. Hence my interest on the subject.
So how about you, have you tried other torque sensors beside the TSDZ2? it's just a friendly question. There are a few technologyphiles on this forum and we need more members.

 

[guerney]

Yes, there's a few. They normally call it a gyroscopic sensor. The sensor can indicate when you're gong up hill and the controller increases the power accordingly so that you don't have to do anything. Many of these bikes are kickstarter start-ups and new brands with phone apps. It's a great idea, but probably not very practical.. Everybody wants different power on different days depending on whether they want to go fast or slow, how tired or energetic they are so whatever the algorthims set in the controller might not suit.

And here I was thinking @Bogmonster666 and I were going to make millions MILLIONS flogging kits featuring windsocks and inclinometers for lazy cyclists. Ver ver disappointed

I like the idea of a simple slider, like a throttle without a spring, where you simply set the power you want, continuously adjustable between min and max. I've done that with speed control, but I'd rather have it with current (power) control. The first Storck Radaar had something like that - probably its best feature, but nobody noticed.

Isn't that essentially what I have via up/down PAS buttons on my BBS01B? I've set "Keep current" in firmware to 100% for every level, and power for each level goes up in increments from 6% (the least required to overcome motor pedalling resistance, plus a bit) to 100% of 15A, which is my controller's limit. I hardly ever use anything less than level 9, because it's zero effort no matter the incline, unless I'm towing a heavy trailer uphill. I don't use the throttle, so I might see if I can flatten it and remove the spring lol, but it'd be UK illegal to use.

That brings back forum memories. You would have loved it. This thread is tame by comparison.

I've been holding back and being nice, because there's time for @alexfnoble to turn things around, or I would have not posted him a jar full of the steam off my piss by now. Plus I read somewhere that flame wars only help warmongers.

 

[pxl666]

If i have more pictures?

i asked several questions but you ignore them . i also want to know if dm02 will be available for 48v ? will you ignore this one also ?