First eBike conversion, helped needed (photos shown)

[Woosh]

Direct drive motors don't freewheel very long. About 3 seconds.

 

[Chipstix]

Okay, I have some progress to report!

I have completed the first shakedown runs initially on 250 W and then on the full 1000 W. What can I say I had a huge smile on my face, really enjoyable.

Everything seems to be firmly mounted, the wiring is all fairly tidy, and the torque arms were a bit fiddly but now I think sorted.

Had to put more air in the rear tyre then I normally would due to the increased weight, but once she's rolling feels very stable and not too heavy.

I still have a slightly dragging rear brake need to look at more on the shimming, I did space the caliper slightly , it's okay not quite right, and there is still a little brake squeal as well.

Also perhaps not surprisingly peddling with PAS level 5 doesn't work as gearing not high enough! Need to think about this...change gearing or use lower PAS level?

Thanks for your help getting this far, next adventure is the first commute to work…


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[Deleted member 4366]

the battery's too far back. You should try and get it as close as possible to the seat-post. It'll make a big difference to handling.

 

[Chipstix]

The only way I can get it for further forward is by having it very tilted, which will have the bag at an angle too. As With much of the kit it seemed not particularly compatible with my bikes design and geometry. I even had a headache with the controls as my handle bars get Fatter in the middle!


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[Deleted member 4366]

As your bike is, it'll flip if you go up a steep hill.

I'd get a different rack. In fact i always make my own out of a piece of thin plywood and some steel or alloy tubes. In your case, steel would be best. You can get steel tube in Wickes. just cut to length, bash the ends flat and drill holes.

 

[Chipstix]

Ok back flips not ideal. I'll find a solution. My commute which is my almost exclusive use is along an old railway cycle path next to a river so basically flat, but it would be better to bring the mass closer to the centre of gravity

I could build custom rack but

A) battery slides in and out and locks in place including master power ignition key which would all have to be transferred

B) I now have invested in Ortlieb rack bags that clip onto the rack so the above design wouldn't work

Other options

1) drill and tap new pannier mount holes on the frame further up where it says "Edinburgh", this would negate need for pannier mount extension adaptor

2) make a bracket L shaped or triangle to mount off same frame position but move rack forward. My worry with this idea is that downward mass/force is not acting directly down on mount bolt but based on clamping force resisting it turning.

I'd have to modify the mud guard to mount it to the underside of the rack but that's no big deal

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[Deleted member 4366]

Normally, the slides are separate to the rack. You can take them off and bolt them to a new one. They normally include the lock keeper too. Only the racks with the lock on the rack are problematic. Take the battery out and look at the construction of the rack.

Look at the photo down the page here. You see the silver slide with the hole for the lock and the receiver attached to it. You can bolt the whole thing to a piece of plywood:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Rear-rack-li-ion-36v-20Ah-Motorized-bicycle-battery/2041263790.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.101.L0C3u3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10130_10068_10136_10137_10138_10060_10062_10141_10056_10055_10054_10059_10099_10103_10102_10096_10148_10052_10053_10050_10107_10142_10051_10143_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10111_10112_10113_10114_130_10037_10032_10078_10079_10077_10073_10070_10123_10124,searchweb201603_9,afswitch_1,ppcSwitch_4,single_sort_0_default&btsid=2813c6ca-af20-4f0c-9348-30eb1c9587e0&algo_expid=47347c94-dff7-4f98-a7b1-2ea5be742fe8-12&algo_pvid=47347c94-dff7-4f98-a7b1-2ea5be742fe8

 

[Chipstix]

I see. OK, and as for mounting the pannier bags? Would need an extra tube each side for clipping to?

I don't wish to come across as reluctant, but the conversion took me a lot more time and effort than expected (which is tricky for me with demanding young kids and missus counting my time in the garage!) so I'm taking some warming up to the idea of chucking the pannier rack I paid money for and building another to bring the battery forward 4 inches!

I would prefer to modify my existing rack or the bike itself (though I have been told drilling holes in the frame where I suggested above is probably a bad idea...!)

 

[Chipstix]

About time for a quick follow up.....The bike is brilliant!

My rear wheel alignment is all corrected, and I have gone from a 22/44 front gearing to 26/48 and the new gearing is spot on for pedaling and cruising at 22mph. I commuted to work in 25 minutes which would have taken me 45mins previously and no shower required! If anything, I might dial it back a bit as I'm in danger of the speed making it feel more urgent and fast paced than it needs to be (especially when the road surface deteriorates and has potholes!).

The bike is heavy at the back but feels stable, the steepest incline is probably only 20deg but I have had no feeling of front lifting. Perhaps helped by the smooth torque of the motor and being mindful of body position.

I'm still getting to grips with understanding the range. The LCD panel is pretty useless for battery capacity, the battery icon shows empty after about 5 miles. I'm disappointed that the 'push to illuminate' 4x green LEDs on the battery pack itself don't seem much help either. This was going to be my 'reliable' gauge. After about 13-14miles, if I try a thumb throttle 100%, or I put it on assist 5, the motor cuts out and the system crashes. If I power off and on with the LCD control panel and go for a lower PAS level it is fine. This continues as the pack discharges and you lose PAS4, then PAS3 (as I have been following the instructions and trying to deep cycle the pack before charging in my first 5 full battery charges). That's all fine, except that I am still getting 3 of the 4 green lights which would suggest 75% full. I find this irritating.

Basically, as it stands at the moment I can only rely on the miles ridden as a guide. My commute is 7.5miles each way, and Cyclotricity say it will be better if I can charge once per round trip rather than once per leg of the journey as this will double the batteries life by halving the number of charge cycles.

Perhaps the battery is still conditioning? Perhaps the BMS is still working out what full and empty looks like? I'm not sure?

I think with the new gearing and PAS3 (or PAS4 for the smoother sections), I should be able to make it work and back on one charge (easier for me to charge bike in my garage though I can remove battery and work and charge it, just adds a bit more faff).

Chris

 

[Woosh]

Perhaps the battery is still conditioning? Perhaps the BMS is still working out what full and empty looks like? I'm not sure?

Lithium ion batteries do not need conditioning.
Your observation is correct. You bike pulls a lot of Amps from the battery, causing its voltage to sag. Nothing you can do that you haven't done already. You have to keep an eye on the miles after the last charge.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I hate to have to say it, but I think your battery is not up to the job. I've got a feeling that it's not going to last very long stressed like that. For a motor/controller with that sort of power, you need something like Samsung 30Q cells or a much bigger battery.

 

[Chipstix]

It was sold as a warranted complete kit by a reputable manufacturer and still covered by warranty with them. My expectation is for a high quality set of components. I will pick it up with Cyclotricity. It's possible that my reports are misrepresentative. I have travelled over 20 miles on one battery charge and the overload issue only happened once I was over 14miles. Below that I could do 100% thumb throttle and also PAS5. The bike does about 28mph.

I need a clean return journey following full charge to assess it further. I have had excellent telephone support from Cyclotricity to date. I'm not in a position to even consider spending more money on a battery, when I'm still paying for this kit via my cycle to work scheme. So I need to understand if this component that I have bought meets its specification or not.


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[Chipstix]

This is the battery that I have, except mine is 48 V and 12 Ah . But it looks exactly like this one that you posted above

https://m.aliexpress.com/s/item/2041263790.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail&productId=2041263790&productSubject=Rear-rack-li-ion-36v-20Ah-Motorized-bicycle-battery&spm=2114.01010208.3.101.L0C3u3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0%2Csearchweb201602_4_10065_10130_10068_10136_10137_10138_10060_10062_10141_10056_10055_10054_10059_10099_10103_10102_10096_10148_10052_10053_10050_10107_10142_10051_10143_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10111_10112_10113_10114_130_10037_10032_10078_10079_10077_10073_10070_10123_10124%2Csearchweb201603_9%2Cafswitch_1%2CppcSwitch_4%2Csingle_sort_0_default&btsid=2813c6ca-af20-4f0c-9348-30eb1c9587e0&algo_expid=47347c94-dff7-4f98-a7b1-2ea5be742fe8-12&algo_pvid=47347c94-dff7-4f98-a7b1-2ea5be742fe8&aff_platform=aaf&cpt=1493473983497&sk=VnYZvQVf&aff_trace_key=9c8bdfd02f2d4a6790dbf440581b216d-1493473983497-04682-VnYZvQVf


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[Deleted member 4366]

It was sold as a warranted complete kit by a reputable manufacturer and still covered by warranty with them. My expectation is for a high quality set of components. I will pick it up with Cyclotricity. It's possible that my reports are misrepresentative. I have travelled over 20 miles on one battery charge and the overload issue only happened once I was over 14miles. Below that I could do 100% thumb throttle and also PAS5. The bike does about 28mph.

I need a clean return journey following full charge to assess it further. I have had excellent telephone support from Cyclotricity to date. I'm not in a position to even consider spending more money on a battery, when I'm still paying for this kit via my cycle to work scheme. So I need to understand if this component that I have bought meets its specification or not.


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I think you're being a bit unfair on Cyclotricity. They're expecting that you'll use it as a legal ride-around bike with maybe occasional full power use, but you're using it full power all the time, which puts a really high strain on the battery, and shortens its life. There's no way that one of those batteries with that kit can be used as a commuter at full power every day and still last the 12 months warranty period. Doing that and then claiming a warranty replacement is about the same as robbing Cyclotricity, regardless of what legal rights you have.

 

[Woosh]

I agree with d8veh. Battery consumption is directly proportional to the cube of the speed. When you ride at 22mph, you use about 22WH per mile whereas at 15mph, you only use about 10WH per mile.
Manufacturers can void the warranty if you derestrict their bikes.

 

[Chipstix]

I'm afraid I completely disagree. I must admit I am somewhat disappointed with the use of the word robbing! I have purchased 1000 W unrestricted kit from Cyclotricity, for which I paid a significant premium over the restricted kit. At no point in any of the literature or material was it stated that it can only be used for unrestricted for a certain percentage of the time. I have a 340 ps car (again for which I paid a significant premium ) and I'm entitled to use all of that hp for the entire duration of the 3 year warranty. If I were not able to I would have bought a lower power variant of my model.

Picking up on Woosh's comments once again Cyclotricity provided me with the Derestriction information they have sold me the 1000 watt kit, I have not modified the standard kit, I am using the kit in exactly the method in which it was sold to me!

I'm not entirely convinced there's anything wrong with the battery anyway, it still needs more testing. In the same way, I was not convinced that my bike would flip over backwards with the pannier battery position, and has actually been absolutely fine! The main point of my email was that I don't seem to be getting a reliable indication of the state of charge from the four green LEDs

I have a good relationship with the technical director of Cyclotricity, so I will call him next week once I have done another good test

What about the positive parts of my review that havent been commented on?![emoji849]

I should also clarify, I expect to use the bike to commute up to 2 to 3 times per week in the summer. 1-2 times per week in the spring and autumn and zero times per week in the winter. So average of 1.4 times per week across the year


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[Woosh]

icking up on Woosh's comments once again Cyclotricity provided me with the Derestriction information they have sold me the 1000 watt kit, I have not modified the standard kit, I am using the kit in exactly the method in which it was sold to me!

My comment on the warranty is meant to be in general, it is of course a matter between you and your supplier. The point I tried to make is that you will get less than half the range if you ride at 22mph instead of 15mph, that is generally true for all Chinese motors with pedal assist sensor.

 

[Benjahmin]

I think you may be hitting the limitations of the battery technology. The more current you draw the harder the battery chemistry has to work to deliver that current. So it heats up, increasing the internal resistance of the battery, which means more volt drop internally, so less delivered to the system. The more time spent on high current draw the more the voltage sags, until the low voltage cut off kicks in and turns the system off. Meanwhile the battery chemistry is still working away converting chemical energy into voltage(potential). So when you turn back on it will power up because the voltage has come back up. But if you imeadiately start to draw top current again, voltage will quickly sag again to cut off.
From what you say it seems that you are doing the equivalent of jumping in the car, putting the peddle to the metal and leaving it there. That's fine if that's what you want to do, but it will give less range and shorten battery life.
I don't know what current rating your controller is, so don't know what you are pulling in pas5. But assuming 1000w, that's around 21A at 48v. That's a lotta juice. What is the max current rating of you battery? (This is the maximum current that it is designed to give) Because if you're operating near or at this limit then it's gonna struggle. It can deliver it for short bursts but will struggle to sustain it.
Please be kinder to your battery, give it a chance to perform for you, I feel for it, I really do. Try pas 4 or 3, it will knock a few mph of your top end, but will it increase you journey time much?

 

[Woosh]

I think the controller is KT- 48V 30A for his 1000W kits.
LVC is 42V.
I usually keep the controller at below 1.5C. For example the Big Bear has 15AH battery, 1.5C = 22.5A. The Big Bear controller is 20A.
Chipstix' battery is 12AH. 1.5C is 18A. He can pull much more than that with his controller.

 

[Benjahmin]

I think the controller is 28A for 1000w kits.

Wow, so that's 1344W.
Seems like motorbike territory to me