Fascism returns to Spain

[mike killay]

My eldest cousin John was captured by the Japs in Malaya.
He returned home a human skeleton.
Nobody could understand why he was so 'down'
He jumped out of a window in 1947 and died.
I well remember the times, how distraught my Grandmother was.
In those days, a suicide in the family was absolutely unmentionable.
Horrible, horrible

 

[Zlatan]

I often wonder when or actually if human race will actually ever grow up.
Its sad times when within what we view as a modern open minded democracy two people are made political prisoners. Essentially imprisoned for holding certain beliefs, in this case Calalan independence.

 

[oldtom]

This is how 'The Guardian' reports on the latest developments in Spain:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/17/madrid-jails-catalan-separatist-leaders-jordi-cuixart-and-jordi-sanchez-pending-investigation

Tom

 

[flecc]

I often wonder when or actually if human race will actually ever grow up.
Its sad times when within what we view as a modern open minded democracy two people are made political prisoners. Essentially imprisoned for holding certain beliefs, in this case Calalan independence.

That was what I posted the government should have done in the first instance. The separatist leaders knew they had to have permission for a referendum on separating from Spain (just as Scotland had to) and yet without permission went ahead and broke the law.

So their arrest was entirely legal and proper.
.

 

[Zlatan]

That was what I posted the government should have done in the first instance. The separatist leaders knew they had to have permission for a referendum on separating from Spain (just as Scotland had to) and yet without permission went ahead and broke the law.

So their arrest was entirely legal and proper.
.

Ridiculous.
Within law has nothing to do with right or wrong. If what they have done is illegal the law needs changing. Its 2017 flecc. Not 1817.
Treason and sedition when no one has been harmed ( except folk voting by GC) are government constructs. Imaginary crimes.
They believe in independence and asked rest of "their" nation. Your position on this could justify civil war. Its already justifying prison sentence. Its wrong Flecc.
South Africa justified imprisonment of Nelson Mandella on similar grounds. What he did was illegal in their constitution. I suppose theirs was wrong and Spains right ? In your opinion???

 

[flecc]

Ridiculous.
Within law has nothing to do with right or wrong. If what they have done is illegal the law needs changing. Its 2017 flecc. Not 1817.
Treason and sedition when no one has been harmed ( except folk voting by GC) are government constructs. Imaginary crimes.
They believe in independence and asked rest of "their" nation. Your position on this could justify civil war. Its already justifying prison sentence. Its wrong Flecc.
South Africa justified imprisonment of Nelson Mandella on similar grounds. What he did was illegal in their constitution. I suppose theirs was wrong and Spains right ? In your opinion???

Not ridiculous at all, it's your stance which is ridiculous and irrational. We all suffer the law and have to obey it, however wrong it may be. When we break it we are liable to arrest.

They broke it, they got arrested and should have expected that.

When we don't like a law there are legal ways to try to get it changed and they should be tried first. If we then fail to get it changed, we have a choice, accept the status quo for the present, or emigrate.
.

 

[Danidl]

Ridiculous.
Within law has nothing to do with right or wrong. If what they have done is illegal the law needs changing. Its 2017 flecc. Not 1817.
Treason and sedition when no one has been harmed ( except folk voting by GC) are government constructs. Imaginary crimes.
They believe in independence and asked rest of "their" nation. Your position on this could justify civil war. Its already justifying prison sentence. Its wrong Flecc.
South Africa justified imprisonment of Nelson Mandella on similar grounds. What he did was illegal in their constitution. I suppose theirs was wrong and Spains right ? In your opinion???

Every society and state has laws , it didn't matter whether they are democratic, autocratic, dictatorships , left, rightist, fascist or whatever .

I doubt whether these two persons were imprisoned for wanting their choice of independence, or for their beliefs. What they have been imprisoned for would have been for their actions. And the expectation that they would continue to so do.

In this case was it not that they were the identified leaders of large group of people ( I am on purpose not using the word mob) which prevented the national police from leaving their barracks?. Even in liberal London or Dundee , the action of impeding the police is an offense, is it not?

It would appear that the chief of the local police, who as not been arrested, is under investigation over the same action. , In that he did not act to release the national police. Now he also has a duty for public safety, and he may have formed a judgement that public safety, was more pressing....and had he acted in accordance with the law the group might well have become an uncontrollable mob.
Had the action of the national police been to lock up anybody with "independence" , ideas , then it would have been internment.... But you know nothing about that in the UK.

Please note that there is no action pending against those courageous firemen, who acted to keep the much larger group of civilians, separated from the much smaller, but more heavily armed police, in another incident.

To equate their actions ( the two arrested )with that of Mandela, is somewhat extreme. The Catalans do and did have the vote. The same case not true in south Africa.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Franco died in 1975, 42 years ago, a blip in the history of Spain. That means that angry young fascists who were of his leaning are less than 65 years old and still in active life.

The Spanish constitution is 39 years old and was written in such a way as to prevent cleansing of fascists from public life. Old leopard new spots. Rajoy is 62 which means he was 20 years old when Franco died... Now don't go jumping tot any conclusions!

Spain is a young and fragile democracy and independent Catalonia became an idea in 1931 as a counter to rising fascism. Before that for 2 centuries Catalonia was only a region of Spain where people spoke a different language. Like the Basque Country, Galicia and Aragon.

The law is the law and the Catalan independentists should have (should be) fight(ing) for a revision of the constitution in order to give them equal autonomy to the Basque Country and Navarra. They would obtain wider support and support from all progressive forces (Podemos for one) in Spain. But Catalan politicians seem as thick and pig headed as their counterparts in Madrid. They have shown in the recent past that they are just as corrupt, if not more so...

 

[oldtom]

The Madrid government has initiated action this morning which may only be step one of a process which will be seen by many as the oppression of a large section of the Spanish population:

world-europe-41678086

Tom

 

[Danidl]

The Madrid government has initiated action this morning which may only be step one of a process which will be seen by many as the oppression of a large section of the Spanish population:

world-europe-41678086

Tom

... And it may well be seen by even more as defending a consitution, by consitutional and legal means.
The parallels with northern Ireland and it's regional parliament currently under suspension, for some 9 months now, cannot have escaped your attention. The irony is delicious, although all those ebikers in NI have my sympathy.

 

[Woosh]

The Madrid government has initiated action this morning which may only be step one of a process which will be seen by many as the oppression of a large section of the Spanish population:

world-europe-41678086

Tom

The EU has now sided with Madrid for 'Unity of Spain'.

 

[oldtom]

Can we believe this man? Does he speak with the authority of the Spanish government? Are British ex-pats secure in Spain after 'Brexit'?

Time will tell but this is today's news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41714435

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

Oh yes! He needs their money...

 

[oldtom]

Today, the Catalans have declared independence from Spain and the Madrid government will begin steps to enforce their authority over the Catalan region.

Not being Spanish, I find it difficult to get a handle on the rights and wrongs of this matter but it appears to me there is no concession by the government towards a large group of people who wish to be independent of the Madrid government.

What doesn't help is the various statements released by EU officials, clearly picking a side at this early stage of events, thus giving their unconditional backing to the national government. Are the Catalans not EU citizens too?

Because this matter requires considerable diplomacy, something apparently in very short supply in Spain, I tend to agree with the comments of Thomas G Clark, the AAV blogger. You can get his take on matters here:

the-eu-reaction-to-catalonia-crisis-is.html

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

A minority of Catalans want independence (43% by the Catalonian government count). So I believe that the referendum result gave no right to declare independence. Had 80 % of the voting public voted for then my opinion would be different. Catalonia is not a country, it hasn't been one for several centuries so I can't see how it can belong to the EU?

I don't think that the Spanish government reacted in the correct manner but that doesn't surprise me at all, they are a bunch of clowns. Remind you of anyone?

 

[mike killay]

Seems to me that Madrid is in conflict with the principles of the UN

http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml

 

[Danidl]

Seems to me that Madrid is in conflict with the principles of the UN

http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml

I disagree. The UN declaration is very laudable . But the people of Spain including the people of Catalonia are free. They freely accepted a consitution more recently than many countries .. They must work within it. Or they must change this consitution.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The only problem with the current constitution is that it favours the PP and they like it that way...

 

[Danidl]

A minority of Catalans want independence (43% by the Catalonian government count). So I believe that the referendum result gave no right to declare independence. Had 80 % of the voting public voted for then my opinion would be different. Catalonia is not a country, it hasn't been one for several centuries so I can't see how it can belong to the EU?

I don't think that the Spanish government reacted in the correct manner but that doesn't surprise me at all, they are a bunch of clowns. Remind you of anyone?

I disagree, even if 100% of the catalan people had voted for independence a few weeks ago, it should come no difference. They have previously signed up to a consitution, and must be prepared to work within that consitution or work to have the consitution changed. That would have meant engaging with their fellow Spaniards.
Had they succeeded in changing the consitution, and then held a legitimate vote, and voted to secede, then EU membership would be automatic, just as it was for east Germans.
I would have no difficulty if instead of the EU having 27 member states had 80 or even more , representing older provinces and with obviously a lesser number of MEPs to each province


The bit I agree with you on is that the actions of the central government was hamfisted , counterproductive and they need to read their .copies of . "how to win friends and influence people".

 

[Danidl]

The only problem with the current constitution is that it favours the PP and they like it that way...

The P P represents the democratic wishes of its membership.. I suppose. The PP has a strength in parliament \senate broadly in line with its democratic mandate. So it is open to the Catalan nationists ( I hate to use that term) to convince sufficient voters in the rest of the federation called Spain to change the consitution. Its a simple system and its called democracy. Government by the People and in this case it is the people of Spain who get to make the call, not any minority in any corner.