Fascism returns to Spain

[oldtom]

I'm not sure I understand the Spanish government's motive in jailing the leaders of the Catalan region, having removed them from office. What are they scared of?

If there is one thing certain to inflame passion among people, it is when the state creates political prisoners. There may be a case under Spanish law to charge those responsible for calling and providing the means to hold a referendum but to hold those people in custody pre-trial seems wholly unnecessary when other means to ensure their attendance at trial is available to the courts.

The members of the government, reared under an oppressive, dictatorial regime, seem unable to get away from the Francoist way of dealing with discontented citizens but at least the execution, disappearance and murder of such is now off the menu....hopefully!

world-europe-41854248

Tom

 

[flecc]

I'm not sure I understand the Spanish government's motive in jailing the leaders of the Catalan region, having removed them from office. What are they scared of?

I think the fact of the leader fleeing the country is probably the motivation, since they could easily follow suit. They could calculate that with a number of them fleeing to be together in one country, extradition could be far more difficult. If he had stayed put their position might have been very different and more agreeable to the government since it would reduce the more immediate risk of civil disorder.

But I think they should all have fled together to Belgium.
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[oldtom]

I think they should all have fled together to Belgium.

I take your point 'flecc' but had their passports been removed, they would have been short on legitimacy to remain in another country. Certainly, if they are indeed charged under the criminal law for the offences suggested by media hacks, I can't see that there would be any difficulty in extradition should that become necessary.

The government has effectively applied direct rule for the Catalan region so for me, a trial, sentence if guilty under the law for the accused and a return to the former status quo perhaps after a national referendum would seem the political answer to the crisis, if that is the right word.

If the government is confident that they would win a national referendum on the constitutional position of semi-autonomous regions, in that they are all Spanish, a referendum would provide up-to-date authority for a return to the status quo. On the other hand, if no referendum occurs, I fear for the future of Spain and its people.

Tom

 

[flecc]

had their passports been removed, they would have been short on legitimacy to remain in another country.

That wouldn't matter to Belgium Tom, given their very strong stance on all humanitarian issues as we once found out to our cost. With its usual level of competence the MoD had contrived to run out of a vital form of ammunition during out recent Middle East campaigns. The one place that had a huge surplus was fellow NATO nation Belgium, so the MoD confidently applied to buy some, expecting no problem.

But to their shock Belgium point blank refused to supply any and were implacable, since they didn't want even that remote connection to military action they strongly disagreed with.

In another connection you may have noticed that terrorists organising action in Europe park themselves in Belgium, knowing they had at least some protection there.

I'm quite certain that if all those Catalans had fled to Belgium, given Belgium's stance on human rights and the well known Spanish failures in that respect, the Spanish government wouldn't have had a cat in hells chance of extraditing them. Furthermore, with Belgium bringing the issue to the forefront of European politics, Spain would start to suffer pressures from the more humanitarian EU nations, notably Germany and Sweden. Germany has a large manufacturing sector in Spain that the Spanish government value highly, giving Germany a very strong position there.

The Spanish government could realise that the best way of putting that issue to bed, avoiding more international embarrassment, would be to allow those Catalans to return without arrest, subject to conditions such a ban from public office for a specified period. In politics expediency always rules.
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[Danidl]

I take your point 'flecc' but had their passports been removed, they would have been short on legitimacy to remain in another country. Certainly, if they are indeed charged under the criminal law for the offences suggested by media hacks, I can't see that there would be any difficulty in extradition should that become necessary.

The government has effectively applied direct rule for the Catalan region so for me, a trial, sentence if guilty under the law for the accused and a return to the former status quo perhaps after a national referendum would seem the political answer to the crisis, if that is the right word.

If the government is confident that they would win a national referendum on the constitutional position of semi-autonomous regions, in that they are all Spanish, a referendum would provide up-to-date authority for a return to the status quo. On the other hand, if no referendum occurs, I fear for the future of Spain and its people.

Tom

The actions of jailing people who are the legitimate elected leaders of a community prior to a fair trial, is wrong and the actions of a weak central government.
I don't know the structure of Spanish law, or the way their courts operate, so it is possible that there was no other Remedy in law,
but the only occasion when people find my country are remanded in custody, rather than on bail, prior to trial, is if they are a flight risk, or in contempt of court, or likely to re offend. Would the court have viewed any of these as grounds?
Why would the national government seek a referendum??. The status quo is that Spain is indivisible, it has to be up to whatever regions what the change to campaign for it and then gain the necessary majority in parliament to have the bill for a referendum passed. Look more locally what happens when a government proposes a referendum on a topic they don't agree with!!

 

[Woosh]

As I understand it, for the last 5 years, the Madrid government refused to discuss any change to their constitution law, forcing the Catalonian government into organising their referendum outside the Spanish constitution.
The EP will soon have to discuss the issue.

 

[oldtom]

I cannot argue with the logic of those who have responded to my post #243 and I think we can all see the difficulty in trying to find a solution to the Spanish problem.

'Danidl's' point in particular serves to demonstrate the impossibility of any region, or even two or three regions, to bring about change under the Spanish constitution.

Why would the national government seek a referendum??. The status quo is that Spain is indivisible, it has to be up to whatever regions what the change to campaign for it and then gain the necessary majority in parliament to have the bill for a referendum passed.

As I think 'flecc' pointed out previously, democracy isn't universally popular and some groups or individuals have to either accept the situation they are in or migrate themselves somewhere else more to their liking. Sadly, we know from history what happens frequently in states with deep schisms within the social structure and Spain has previous in that regard.

I am not confident that Spain's future as a democracy is assured although I would like to see some kind of accommodation arrived at between the national government and the regional authorities that permits the expression of the cultural differences within the Spanish state while ensuring fairness in investment and taxation that recognises the inherent disparity between various areas, largely to do with matters ethnic, geophysical and the resultant concentrations of population. Most countries have such disparities to one degree or another but Spain seems not to have addressed their political difficulties as well perhaps as some other countries.

I shan't hold my breath!

Tom

 

[Danidl]

I cannot argue with the logic of those who have responded to my post #243 and I think we can all see the difficulty in trying to find a solution to the Spanish problem.

'Danidl's' point in particular serves to demonstrate the impossibility of any region, or even two or three regions, to bring about change under the Spanish constitution.



As I think 'flecc' pointed out previously, democracy isn't universally popular and some groups or individuals have to either accept the situation they are in or migrate themselves somewhere else more to their liking. Sadly, we know from history what happens frequently in states with deep schisms within the social structure and Spain has previous in that regard.

I am not confident that Spain's future as a democracy is assured although I would like to see some kind of accommodation arrived at between the national government and the regional authorities that permits the expression of the cultural differences within the Spanish state while ensuring fairness in investment and taxation that recognises the inherent disparity between various areas, largely to do with matters ethnic, geophysical and the resultant concentrations of population. Most countries have such disparities to one degree or another but Spain seems not to have addressed their political difficulties as well perhaps as some other countries.

I shan't hold my breath!

Tom

My point was not to argue for it being impossible to hold that referendum rather it was for the argument that if one wanted to hold a referendum one needed to build a broad consensus across other regions also. All my previous posts on this topic were consistent with that viewpoint.
To paraphrase a notable UK politician democracy means democracy...

 

[anotherkiwi]

They have been arrested for rebellion against the state ( organising and holding the referendum).

Woosh is correct, the PP refused to even talk about modifying the constitution, all the other parties to the left of them are for a brush up of the constitution. Had the PP said OK lets modify the constitution and give all of the autonomous regions the same powers as the Basque Country this would never have happened in the first place.

 

[flecc]

I shan't hold my breath!

Maybe you won't have to hold your breath as long as you might think Tom. The Spanish government is increasingly painting itself into a corner which will soon become very uncomfortable in respect of their relations with the EU and some external countries, some of both already being very unhappy with the Spanish record on rights.

Given their very weak economy, their partial dependence on EU support, their major dependence on their agricultural exports and considerable dependence on those countries with big businesses who manufacture there but have alternatives, there could easily be serious long lasting consequences arising from their current position. So they might find it untenable and have to change quite soon.
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[MikelBikel]

It was hypocritical of the Madrid gov to say the Catalan leader was "welcome to take part in the regional election", with knives drawn behind their backs.

No chance of them getting a fair trial in Spain, so an appeal to the European court on grounds of Madrids demonstrated brutality and duplicity may come.
I hope he hides in the Ecuadorian embassy, they're a v.hospitable bunch.

The best way for Catalans to assert themselves legally is by having their own currency and boycotting those companies who skipped, hit Madrid in the pocket!

 

[flecc]

The best way for Catalans to assert themselves legally is by having their own currency and boycotting those companies who skipped, hit Madrid in the pocket!

That might look an attractive option, but in practice it's impossible.

The problem is that almost all other countries refuse to recognise those who declare UDI, so that makes new currency acceptance and trading impossible. Catalonia would immediately downward slide into bankruptcy.
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[the_killjoy]

But they would keep the euro so currency is not an issue.

 

[flecc]

But they would keep the euro so currency is not an issue.

I was replying to the suggestion of them having their own currency, which of course would not be recognised.

But they can use any existing currency and don't need permission to do so. They can have more than one foreign currency too, something few realise.

Zimbabwe has three currencies, the US dollar, the euro and the South African rand. There any of the three are accepted everywhere.
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[Danidl]

I was replying to the suggestion of them having their own currency, which of course would not be recognised.

But they can use any existing currency and don't need permission to do so. They can have more than one foreign currency too, something few realise.

Zimbabwe has three currencies, the US dollar, the euro and the South African rand. There any of the three are accepted everywhere.
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As an aside...
NI has three or four currencies also... The pound sterling notes as issued by bank of England. Pound sterling as issued by northern Ireland banks , maybe the pound sterling as issued by Scottish banks and the Euro.
The Bank of England sterling note is acceptable everywhere.
The NI sterling note is acceptable in NI and occasionally in the border counties of RoI, but not elsewhere.
The Scottish sterling note is acceptable in Scotland, and possibly in NI Not sure about that, but only with difficulty in southern England.
The Euro is acceptable throughout most , if not all of NI. It used to be confined to the border towns of Newry etc, but it's range is spreading...

 

[oldtom]

This video illustrates the problems that beset Spain:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1765675626805676

¿Claro?

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

Tom to be fair you should read up on corruption in Catalonia they have nothing to fear in a competition with the PP... Pujo is being investigated for 1.8 billion Euros of public money going astray and finding itself in his "offshore" bank accounts (Andorra is inland). And that is just one of several pro independence leaders, Mas is also on the list.

 

[oldtom]

Tom to be fair you should read up on corruption in Catalonia they have nothing to fear in a competition with the PP... Pujo is being investigated for 1.8 billion Euros of public money going astray and finding itself in his "offshore" bank accounts (Andorra is inland). And that is just one of several pro independence leaders, Mas is also on the list.

I take your point AK and I'm already familiar with the level of corruption in Spain from the top down to the local ayuntamientos. The tax avoidance practised at every level, recognised and accepted by local officials, is quite breathtaking.

However, understanding why cheating is so widely practised means going back to Franco's time with all that was going on then. That becomes a very long, convoluted story but the prosecution of those local government officials for attempting to ballot their people and legitimise their claim for a separate state is quite a different matter. The Spanish constitution does not provide any mechanism by which a region may declare UDI, no matter what percentage of the region's electorate may be in favour of secession.

My own belief is that Rajoy and Co should sit down with the Catalan leaders and attempt to find some common ground. Sadly, politicians of Rajoy's generation who grew up under Franco's rule revert to type, ie, what they witnessed when they were young, imagining that to be a normal course of action.

Prosecutions like those we are likely to see unfold will simply engender bitterness and heavy-handed government action historically (particularly in Spain) tends to lead to persecution over time of whole regions. I know this because I live in one which received f-all under Franco and plenty of it! That was because they p'd him off, holding out against his regime and causing him to divert some troops to put down the rag-tag resistance fighters in that sparsely-populated region that would have been better deployed in Madrid and the northern cities.

Anyway, the real question from the video is why Rajoy's government remains in place when the chief prosecutor has evidence (and has had it for four years) of major political corruption at the highest level of government. I don't think the answer is too difficult to find.

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

Spain, Greece, Portugal, ... are you insinuating that countries which have had military dictatorships are more prone to corruption per chance?

 

[oldtom]

Spain, Greece, Portugal, ... are you insinuating that countries which have had military dictatorships are more prone to corruption per chance?

I wasn't actually but since you mention it, if there is such a common thread there, then perhaps we should include the UK in that as I suspect Cromwell's style of government could also be described as a military dictatorship - certainly, in terms of corruption on the grand scale, the British need no lessons from overseas!

Tom