I get final warnings all the time, but I know she doesnt really mean it!!im on my final warning over there
Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..
- Thread starter Martin@e-bikeshop
- Start date
Perhaps its the basic mentality of some cyclists. On a normal bike, with a lycra jockey, no expense is spared to lessen the weight by a few grams to make them go that little bit faster, so why is it hard to understand that a similarly motivated e-bike rider would do whatever it takes to make their bike go faster? I totally understand where KTM is coming from, but to try to convince some closet boy racers that they should not be fitting dongles is probably a waste of time. If dealers were stopped from openly selling/fitting these it would just go underground.
Progress cant be stopped..
Progress cant be stopped..
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And ended up where you started.On my driving test I had to make good progress.. Thats movement isnt it?
I'm just going to reply, because there is a still a bit of confusion about a few things and I'm hoping I can clear some up.
Flecc and others have compared dongle'd eBikes to cars / mini mopeds / and other things that can bought and then can be used illegally, and suggested traders / importers aren't liable for an accident when they are used illegally. This is correct.
However there is an important difference with a dongle'd eBike. All the products you've used as examples are products themselves and tweaking, tuning them etc etc, doesn't change their category of product (legally), and is generally not done by the dealer selling them.
Excuse the boring detail, but it is important. An eBike is classed as a bicycle (BS EN 15194) if a dealer dongles it, it takes it out of this category, and therefore its no longer a CE certified product thats considered safe to be used. This is due to trading standards, and trading standards law clearly says any product sold must be safe. If a shop sells a bike with a dongle on it, its not tested, and not legally allowed to be used ANYWHERE, so do you think any competent lawyer would find it hard to prove that the shop was liable for selling it, under trading standards law.
There is a simple guide to the law here:
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-business/ts-business-safety/tsguide-unsafe-goods.htm
So that's why dealers selling dongle'd bikes are taking a massive legal risk, and why we have such a strong stance on it, and I'm frankly shocked Raleigh haven't checked / realised.
If you as a customer buy a bike and then buy a dongle... the dealers of both products (bike and dongle) are legally untouchable and its you as an individual who is responsible for creating this illegal vehicle and taking it onto the public highway.
For us as a business, if customers want to dongle bikes and use them on the road, its stupid and risky but it doesn't really effect us because an accident won't have an impact on the industry or our dealers I suspect.
However for offroad is a different story, and this is where my issue with Martin is (not so much Oxygen / Woosh etc etc, because they don't sell "proper" mountain bikes), if you use a dongle'd bike (either sold as such, or home done) at a trail centre or forest, part etc etc, and there is an accident your actions could and probably will result in ALL eBikes being banned from all trail centres and all forestry commission land and all mtb events. This will have a massive effect on lots of people business over the next x years, and also impact on the lives of many many individuals.
Like it or not eBikes are getting more and more press in the standard cycling magazines and most bike shops now have a much better idea of what they are. With this knowledge comes an awareness of the impact of the bikes, and the fact that people are using dongled bikes at venues is becoming more and more of an issue, and this is why I think pressure should be put on Martin to shop promoting it!
Now, all the above is different again for sPedelecs, because they are built and approved and tested to be what they are... so any shop selling them isn't modifying a CE approved product out of its legal category. So selling them is actually less legally risky for the trade, but the problems for the customer and the industry are still the same. On road, chances of getting caught and chance of it impacting on people other than the user are small. Offroad you'll essentially be riding a Moped at trail centres with all the negative impacts I've discussed above with dongle'd bikes.
So we don't sell the sPedelecs either, because the on-road ones we make can only be used illegally and we don't feel we should be putting our end customers in the position where they break the law. The offroad ones would end up being used in the forests and trail centres where I love to ride, and we don't want to risk these places being closed off to all eBikes.
I hope that all makes sense. Sorry for long post, I hope it clears up some of the misunderstandings regarding the liability issues.
Flecc and others have compared dongle'd eBikes to cars / mini mopeds / and other things that can bought and then can be used illegally, and suggested traders / importers aren't liable for an accident when they are used illegally. This is correct.
However there is an important difference with a dongle'd eBike. All the products you've used as examples are products themselves and tweaking, tuning them etc etc, doesn't change their category of product (legally), and is generally not done by the dealer selling them.
Excuse the boring detail, but it is important. An eBike is classed as a bicycle (BS EN 15194) if a dealer dongles it, it takes it out of this category, and therefore its no longer a CE certified product thats considered safe to be used. This is due to trading standards, and trading standards law clearly says any product sold must be safe. If a shop sells a bike with a dongle on it, its not tested, and not legally allowed to be used ANYWHERE, so do you think any competent lawyer would find it hard to prove that the shop was liable for selling it, under trading standards law.
There is a simple guide to the law here:
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-business/ts-business-safety/tsguide-unsafe-goods.htm
So that's why dealers selling dongle'd bikes are taking a massive legal risk, and why we have such a strong stance on it, and I'm frankly shocked Raleigh haven't checked / realised.
If you as a customer buy a bike and then buy a dongle... the dealers of both products (bike and dongle) are legally untouchable and its you as an individual who is responsible for creating this illegal vehicle and taking it onto the public highway.
For us as a business, if customers want to dongle bikes and use them on the road, its stupid and risky but it doesn't really effect us because an accident won't have an impact on the industry or our dealers I suspect.
However for offroad is a different story, and this is where my issue with Martin is (not so much Oxygen / Woosh etc etc, because they don't sell "proper" mountain bikes), if you use a dongle'd bike (either sold as such, or home done) at a trail centre or forest, part etc etc, and there is an accident your actions could and probably will result in ALL eBikes being banned from all trail centres and all forestry commission land and all mtb events. This will have a massive effect on lots of people business over the next x years, and also impact on the lives of many many individuals.
Like it or not eBikes are getting more and more press in the standard cycling magazines and most bike shops now have a much better idea of what they are. With this knowledge comes an awareness of the impact of the bikes, and the fact that people are using dongled bikes at venues is becoming more and more of an issue, and this is why I think pressure should be put on Martin to shop promoting it!
Now, all the above is different again for sPedelecs, because they are built and approved and tested to be what they are... so any shop selling them isn't modifying a CE approved product out of its legal category. So selling them is actually less legally risky for the trade, but the problems for the customer and the industry are still the same. On road, chances of getting caught and chance of it impacting on people other than the user are small. Offroad you'll essentially be riding a Moped at trail centres with all the negative impacts I've discussed above with dongle'd bikes.
So we don't sell the sPedelecs either, because the on-road ones we make can only be used illegally and we don't feel we should be putting our end customers in the position where they break the law. The offroad ones would end up being used in the forests and trail centres where I love to ride, and we don't want to risk these places being closed off to all eBikes.
I hope that all makes sense. Sorry for long post, I hope it clears up some of the misunderstandings regarding the liability issues.
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What do you think of this?
Both Woosh and Oxygen sell kits that are easy to derestrict. What if a customer gets a proper mountain bike (like this Merida Big Nine) and fits a BBS01 crank drive or an Oxygen CST kit on it and take it to trail centres? on the face of it, road legal, but easily derestricted.
Kits aren't CE certified as bicycles, so the dealers have no risk that I'm aware of... I've not checked though because we don't sell them.
So if a dealer converts a customers bike, they won't have sold them the bike... do no legal risk.
But I'm not a lawyer, so don't quote me on that.
However all the impacts of the customer using the bike offroad are the same, and the liability of the individual are the same. Its only the seller that is a bit more protected I think.
I suppose the question is what would the trail centre operators think of it? If they became aware of how easy it is to derestrict this kit, and that many, probably most users do change the settings, it becomes another reason to ban e MBs from their centres.
Two things wrong with this interpretation.
First specifying ebike when there is no such thing in UK law. The vehicle you speak of as being classed as a bicycle is in law an EAPC (Electric Assisted Pedal Cycle). If a dealer sells an e-bike, ebike, electric bicycle etc with no mention of it being an EAPC, there is no offence in law or any liability attached to that legal sale. Whether he fits a dongle or not isn't relevant, if not an EAPC at point of sale it is a non-type approved motor vehicle, just like a mini-moto etc. If a user fits a dongle post sale, the dealer again has no liability, even when they supply a dongle post ebike sale.
Second, what you say about trading standards applies equally to mini-mopeds, powered pavement scooters and all the other illegals on sale here for decades. They are not type appoved and therefore haven't been tested for safety in exactly the same way. Therefore, what I've said about why those suppliers have never been liable applies equally to illegal e-bikes. Trading Standards will no more act against them than they have against all those other illegal vehicles, simply because they cannot.
Col, my sympathies are with the legal pedelec market and I think the illegallity going on with e-bikes is foolish. But that doesn't alter the true and well proven legal position for suppliers that I've spelled out, and wishing it did doesn't make it so.
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You'll forgive me Flecc, if I don't take onboard legal advise offered on a forum.
We've spoken at length with our local trading standards and others and I'm comfortable with our position.
We've spoken at length with our local trading standards and others and I'm comfortable with our position.
I wonder how many actually fit these dongles! When I bought my e-bike I really struggled to find a supplier, but now most LBS seem to stock them. At my next visit I will ask about "tuning" and see what is said but I am thinking that most will buy without even realising they can be .. "tuned"
The other thing I dont understand is that this Bosch/Dongle thing is a hot topic but nothing seems to be said about all these hub drive bikes that I have seen are easily able to beat my best efforts as they dont seem to have any restrictions. Bearing in mind the price of the bosch powered bikes there are likely to me many more "other" e-bikes about equally illegal by the 15.5 mph cut off definition so why do we obsess over just one type?
This is not to make a point, I genuinely dont understand. On this forum the speed and setting up of inexpensive high powered, fast e-bikes are openly discussed..
Confused!!
The other thing I dont understand is that this Bosch/Dongle thing is a hot topic but nothing seems to be said about all these hub drive bikes that I have seen are easily able to beat my best efforts as they dont seem to have any restrictions. Bearing in mind the price of the bosch powered bikes there are likely to me many more "other" e-bikes about equally illegal by the 15.5 mph cut off definition so why do we obsess over just one type?
This is not to make a point, I genuinely dont understand. On this forum the speed and setting up of inexpensive high powered, fast e-bikes are openly discussed..
Confused!!
I'm not an MTB'er really, however these threads make me feel like getting a fast and powerful one and going to as many MTB events to smash all the circuit times.
That should help speed up what seems inevitable according to some. Then perhaps these sorts of threads would cease. ...
That should help speed up what seems inevitable according to some. Then perhaps these sorts of threads would cease. ...
It's very simple Phil, sales and money. Only Kudus Dave will openly admit to the real reason for threads that end like this. Those kicking up a fuss aren't competing with these kits, and not many are put into MTB's that then go tearing round trail centres or off road sportives. So they're not likely to lead to a loss of sale or ban of all e-MTB's at trail centres.
On a personal level a high speed MTB is pretty pointless, in the same way that you highlighted your ride in heavy traffic not requiring a higher speed than standard.
And of course I am not giving legal advice, just stating history. I'm merely stating a position with regard to suppliers of illegal public use vehicles that has been well proven over many decades.
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