Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..

[flecc]

But I'm afraid our advise is that our dealers would be liable should an accident happen. There are a number of reasons for this that I won't go over and over again.

That advice is clearly wrong. Why has no manufacturer, importer or dealer ever been liable over the thousands of deaths involving cars supplied with maximum speeds far in excess of any possible legal public use, often in accidents when being used at the illegal speeds?

Because they are not liable. Only the user is liable, not the supplier.
.

 

[RobF]

For our own information, we asked Jresa to provide substantiation regarding the transaction which the poster says they have, but have decided not to provide to us, instead deciding to remove/edit posts where references to that transaction taking place have been made.

The only reasonable conclusion is Jresa fabricated a story out of malicious intent to harm a business which is also a fellow forum member.

If that's not a banning offence, I don't know what it is.

 

[soundwave]

http://www.bikediscount.de/KTM-Macina-Egnition-27-GPS-45

so what would happen if you sold this bike then end customers put a custom bad ass dongle on it so will go 50mph.75kph.

can you prove if it was used on the bike ?

 

[JohnCade]

That advice is clearly wrong. Why has no manufacturer, importer or dealer ever been liable over the thousands of deaths involving cars supplied with maximum speeds far in excess of any possible legal public use, often in accidents when being used at the illegal speeds?

Because they are not liable. Only the user is liable, not the supplier.
.

Not privy to the legal advice he received but I would imagine the person who gave it was qualified in the field. As to cars being capable of much greater speed, it isn’t really the same thing. The cars are legal as they are and using them in itself is not illegal. Only using them to their full potential speed is. The S pedelec is illegal the moment the buyer rides away on it at walking pace. I thought you posted something like that on another thread BTW.

Generally speaking I agree that it’s use that counts. But maybe KTM's lawyer has a different and arguable case in this instance? Probably only find out how good his advice was it ever went to court, and I expect KTM wants to be on the safe side and not go there.

As an importer he is different from dealers but some of those might think it was worth the risk, and some might not know of any risk. KTM did write further up that they have been educating their dealers as to the legal risk recently.

 

[EddiePJ]

He's actually doing 2 things we have a problem with. Firstly by selling offroad bikes with dongles this is something that could cause the MTB side of eBikes to simply collapse in the UK, because we'll loose access rights everywhere. So this effects us, and lots of our customers who sell eMTBs and their customers who love riding their bikes at trail centres and parks everywhere.

Points that I'm struggling to understand why certain forum members are readily choosing to either ignore, or are seemingly happy to defend e-bikeshop's case. A case that his clearly flat on it's face by the noticeable lack of response by Martin from e-bikeshop.

I'm also struggling to understand why people just can't accept the fact these bikes are pretty much impossible to use legally within the UK, and also why people are choosing to have a pop at Bosch for their terms and conditions. They are what they are, end of.

I'm reminded of when people ask for advice over something in life, but when the reply doesn't fit with their mindset, they then go and carry on regardless, choosing to only listen to what suits and fits their mindset.

Not really fair to just single Martin out with this one, as it is a far more reaching statement Woosh, Oxygen etc, but I'd suggest that those defending Martin and his actions, really should step back and consider what the purpose of a pedelec actually is before being so quick to defend.

 

[nemesis]

is there a record or evidence of any S class e-bike dealer being prosecuted for any accident or claim,there must be a high number being ridden out on the roads and trails in the uk.

 

[tillson]

I guess Jresa's made a fool out of me then.

That's what you get for being a trusting soul

Don't worry about it, ------------- had me a few years ago.

The only reasonable conclusion is Jresa fabricated a story out of malicious intent to harm a business which is also a fellow forum member.

If that's not a banning offence, I don't know what it is.

Eyes right!

££££££££££££££££££££££££

 

[JohnCade]

is there a record or evidence of any S class e-bike dealer being prosecuted for any accident or claim,there must be a high number being ridden out on the roads and trails in the uk.

Don’t think so. But that’s not to say it can’t happen.

 

[flecc]

As to cars being capable of much greater speed, it isn’t really the same thing. The cars are legal as they are and using them in itself is not illegal.

The answer to this was already contained in the prior post I made when as well as cars I mentioned mini-motos and powered pavement scooters. They are also illegal the moment they are used but have been freely sold here for decades.

They have been a continual source of trouble and expense to the authorities and there have been very serious accidents involving them. This Google link connects to some of the deaths for example.

If the suppliers had been in any way liable, we can be confident that action would have been taken against them, but there isn't a shred of evidence that has ever happened. I maintain that is because they have no civil or legal liability.

At one time I thought there might be a slight chance of an action, but since then and going more deeply into the issue I now don't think there is. Of course lawyers with an eye on their bank balances are prepared to argue any possibility since for them it's always win-win, but no insurance company has risked the costs involved in any such case.
.

 

[Gubbins]

Near to me was a bit of moorland that some off road motorbikers made into a coarse with ramps and jumps etc. All of the bikes were ileagal. Most of the riders unlicensed and there were many accidents. The locals were fed up with the noise and complained but neither the council (landowner) or the police seemed to be able to stop it.
After a time (years I think) it was finally stopped but I never heard of any prosecutions and some of these bikes arive by road and were much more obviously ileagal than an electric bike.
It just apeared like no one in authority was interested. Which is why I find it hard to envisage anyone being sued for millions

 

[JohnCade]

Near to me was a bit of moorland that some off road motorbikers made into a coarse with ramps and jumps etc. All of the bikes were ileagal. Most of the riders unlicensed and there were many accidents. The locals were fed up with the noise and complained but neither the council (landowner) or the police seemed to be able to stop it.
After a time (years I think) it was finally stopped but I never heard of any prosecutions and some of these bikes arive by road and were much more obviously illagall than an electric bike.
It just apeared like no one in authority was interested. Which is why I find it hard to envisage anyone being sued for millions

I expect we’ve all suffered from that happening nearby at one time or another. The police can’t deal with it because they would have to be there all the time and arrest loads of them, and the people who do it don’t care about the police, or the people they’re annoying. It’s totally illegal but apart from the odd crack down when it becomes an issue the people who do it get away with it. Unless it’s near a well off area where the police tend to be more active on anti social behaviour.

KTM’s point is not that the police will do anything about S pedelecs just being on the road. He says that the possibility exists that an insurance company will go after a dealer, or even the bike's importer, if the rider of an illegal bike puts someone in a bed for life or some such, and they can’t get the three million quid awarded by the court out of him or his insurance company.

 

[nemesis]

whatever the conclusion of this thread is nobody can doubt martin at the e-bike shop for his passion and enthusiasm for e-bikes and the enjoyment of,yes it is all about selling bikes and if you have a business the dollar bill is very important,i think that more people on here will benefit from his input than won`t,i have never bought from him but always enjoy reading his blogs and information on all the latest developments in the ever developing electric bike world.

 

[EddiePJ]

Off topic, sorry.

Soundwave,I'm not having a go it's just that you push your bike to the limits without any preventative maintenance and then wonder why things start failing. I myself have a KTM Lycan 27.5 GPS same as EddiePJ and it seems that the maintenance schedule for the rear suspension at least is 25 hours of use. The thought of having to get it done at 25 hours is sickening but if it needs to be done and keeps the bike working great then i'll have to have it done. The bike is fantastic, I've not done as many miles as I would like on it yet but did manage 41 mph downhill in the lake district and with the standard brake setup felt totally in control and was able to stop in seconds and don't feel the need for a dongle at the moment either.

Preventative maintenance being the key words. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/how-many-people-are-using-there-e-bike-off-road.15780/page-42#post-273626
It doesn't needs to be sickening. Just simple and almost cursory checks with each wash and clean.

Nice choice of bike.

.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

What I personally don't like is a company selling 1 item in 2 options for thousand of pounds difference when all it takes them is a simple software change and then say we don't offer warranty on a self derestricted bike just so that they can sell the more expensive one. In small print and in my mind that is deceit in a way.

Sure they make the rules, take them or leave them, but it happens so often nowdays with a lot of consumer products that I find it appalling. So to some extent I sympathise with those that would remove a dongle to be able to claim warranty if a problem appears. I bet you 9 times out of 10 it won't even have anything to do with the dongle as the dongle simply allows the motor to run to its full potential. Nothing more(if I am not mistaken).

Still illegal in the UK, still wouldn't do it for these reasons but if I were in Germany I would strongly consider it.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Just because the number of prosecutions is low or even nil,does not make it right to sell a product that you can see with your own eyes is illegal.
The use of a mobile phone in a car was a high profile offence some years ago but then became almost accepted. Until there was a spate of nasty fatal accidents blamed on illegal use of mobiles in cars and lorries,the police reacted by having a vendetta.
As someone who has been in business for 43 years I can think of many circumstances where customers have been less than honest when it suits them......If a customer is caught using an illegal bike by the police,with the plethora of convictions that can result,I put money on it he will say that he didn't know about the speed/power limits and will blaim the dealer as telling him ....DONT WORRY IT WILL BE ALRIGHT,THE LAW IS IGNORED BY EVERYONE. In contrast the dealer will protect his proverbial and say....WE TOLD THE CUSTOMER ONLY TO USE IT ON PRIVATE LAND OR GET IT REGISTERED.
I suspect the owner of the bike will be the easier to prosecute,I cannot imagine any circumstance where the dealer will help the owner to overturn any prosecution and get himself involved in messy litigation.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

whatever the conclusion of this thread is nobody can doubt martin at the e-bike shop for his passion and enthusiasm for e-bikes and the enjoyment of,yes it is all about selling bikes and if you have a business the dollar bill is very important,i think that more people on here will benefit from his input than won`t,i have never bought from him but always enjoy reading his blogs and information on all the latest developments in the ever developing electric bike world.

I bet Martin is fed up he even started this posting,it is obvious that fitting dongles to e-bikes is a very important part of his business,otherwise after all this flak he would stop doing it. I must say that we probably lose 20% of sales because we are not prepared to sell illegal bikes...there is a posting from a forum member in the foregoing thread that says he would buy a KTM bike if only a dongle could be fitted to it.
I am in the fortunate position that e-bike sales only contribute 5% to the groups total revenue so am not hungry enough to take the legal and moral risk of selling illegals,other smaller companies feel a much greater need to take the risk to generate sales.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

What I personally don't like is a company selling 1 item in 2 options for thousand of pounds difference when all it takes them is a simple software change and then say we don't offer warranty on a self derestricted bike just so that they can sell the more expensive one. In small print and in my mind that is deceit in a way.

Sure they make the rules, take them or leave them, but it happens so often nowdays with a lot of consumer products that I find it appalling. So to some extent I sympathise with those that would remove a dongle to be able to claim warranty if a problem appears. I bet you 9 times out of 10 it won't even have anything to do with the dongle as the dongle simply allows the motor to run to its full potential. Nothing more(if I am not mistaken).

Still illegal in the UK, still wouldn't do it for these reasons but if I were in Germany I would strongly consider it.

The dongle is very illegal in Germany and German police don't muck around.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

A lot of things are illegal in Germany but it still is the country with the highest tuning industry on pretty much everything. I don't see a lot of locals being that much afraid.

 

[soundwave]

im on my final warning over there

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

im on my final warning over there

For the ebike?