Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..

[PhilX]

Two things wrong with this interpretation.

First specifying ebike when there is no such thing in UK law. The vehicle you speak of as being classed as a bicycle is in law an EAPC (Electric Assisted Pedal Cycle). If a dealer sells an e-bike, ebike, electric bicycle etc with no mention of it being an EAPC, there is no offence in law or any liability attached to that legal sale. Whether he fits a dongle or not isn't relevant, if not an EAPC at point of sale it is a non-type approved motor vehicle, just like a mini-moto etc. If a user fits a dongle post sale, the dealer again has no liability, even when they supply a dongle post ebike sale.

Second, what you say about trading standards applies equally to mini-mopeds, powered pavement scooters and all the other illegals on sale here for decades. They are not type appoved and therefore haven't been tested for safety in exactly the same way. Therefore, what I've said about why those suppliers have never been liable applies equally to illegal e-bikes. Trading Standards will no more act against them than they have against all those other illegal vehicles, simply because they cannot.

Col, my sympathies are with the legal pedelec market and I think the illegallity going on with e-bikes is foolish. But that doesn't alter the true and well proven legal position for suppliers that I've spelled out, and wishing it did doesn't make it so.
.

Hi,
I've been following this thread with interest and I agree with Flecc's post above.
I would like to add the following.
To the Bosch warranty discussion:
Rather than be afraid of any unlikely mechanical failings due to using a dongle it is in Bosch's best interest to be seen to remain within the law that governs EAPC's. This should also apply to dealerships for obvious reasons.
Laws can be changed.

For once the great unwashed have the use of powered road transport presently free from encumbrances. Among certain limitations placed upon EAPC's is a relatively low speed, this governed by research.
Personally I find the trade off between speed limitation and the freedom from licence, road tax and insurance a good trade off. No parking fees when I take mine into town + charging the battery from my solar being the icing on the cake.
For those that find the trade off unacceptable I recommend a Triumph Daytona like the one that lives in my garage. A snip at £8k it will go from standstill to Christ knows what in a heart beat. You need strong arms to hang on to the bars and glue on your erse to keep it on the seat. An adrenaline junkies dream. Sadly you do need a driving licence & road tax and insurance but if speed is your thing it's the way to go.
Oh Yeah BTW it doesn't need a dongle so you save a few bob there.

Gripe.
I remain surprised at EPAC riders that willy weave through traffic in a manner that puts both themselves and others at risk then post their skills on social media. What are they telling everyone?

Finally.
As a Haibike/Bosch owner unless you like pedaling very very fast and are comfortable being outside of the law it's pointless fitting a dongle until you also fit either a new chain wheel/ rear cassette.
Regards to all,
PhilX

 

[Artstu]

Talking of moaning sour minded trail centre riders moaning about e-bikes on their trails. it seems some of them aren't that intelligent,

50 of these visitors to Gisburn forest think it okay to leave their Strava running whilst driving home, pinching 50 top places on this segment.

http://www.strava.com/segments/2607581?filter=overall

I have no doubt they'd soon be kicking up a fuss if segments in the forest were taken by 50 e-bike riders.

 

[Gubbins]

Talking of moaning sour minded trail centre riders moaning about e-bikes on their trails. it seems some of them aren't that intelligent,

50 of these visitors to Gisburn forest think it okay to leave their Strava running whilst driving home, pinching 50 top places on this segment.

http://www.strava.com/segments/2607581?filter=overall

I have no doubt they'd soon be kicking up a fuss if segments in the forest were taken by 50 e-bike riders.

And of course they don't want to delete them. . Which would be the right thing to do. .

 

[Artstu]

And of course they don't want to delete them. . Which would be the right thing to do. .

They just need to crop them, but they can't be bothered. I know that at least 50 riders rides have already been flagged before, but they've given up bothering now.

 

[EddiePJ]

I'm not an MTB'er really, however these threads make me feel like getting a fast and powerful one and going to as many MTB events to smash all the circuit times.
That should help speed up what seems inevitable according to some. Then perhaps these sorts of threads would cease. ...

What a very childish attitude to have.

Easily the least constructive post to date..

.

 

[Artstu]

What a very childish attitude to have.

Easily the least constructive post to date..

.

Perhaps, if I was actually serious. Even those most level headed among us have a limit to the number of times this comes up.

Yes I don't have to read it. Think of my suggestion as a way to stop it all once and for all. Constructive in my book.

 

[Izzyekerslike]

Soundwave are you out there... Looks like it's time for another mad video to lighten the thread. Jun

 

[soundwave]

i am lol cam never come be here tomoz

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Hi,
I've been following this thread with interest and I agree with Flecc's post above.

in the interests of getting this thread back onto a postive discussion.

I'm intrigued enough by Flecc's opinion, and your agreement with it that I would be interested to hear you logic, so I can ensure its discussed our end.

Trading Standards law says this:
____________________________________
Introduction
If your business supplies products to consumers, you need to make sure the products are safe.

The heaviest responsibility falls on producers, eg the manufacturer of a product. But distributors - such as shops and wholesalers - also have legal responsibilities.

Failing to meet your responsibilities can have serious consequences. You could face legal action with possible fines or even imprisonment. You could also be sued by anyone who has been injured or has suffered damage to personal property as a result of using your product.

This guide outlines the basics of product liability and product safety law. It will help you understand how you are affected and what action you need to take.
_____________________________________

Now I know about Mini Motos, because I've owned and raced them in the past and there are standards they have to meet to be sold... BS7407:1991 Specification for vehicles directly propelled by energy derived from a fuel, capable of carrying children, etc etc, some even come under EN71 Toys. So if any of these have been crashed, or used illegally the dealers may well have been covered.

So what I don't understand is how you think a dealer selling a dongled eBike (and this is a clear distinction from an sPedelec) would be protected legally in the even some riding the dongled bike was involved in an accident, based on the clear guidance under trading standards laws.

Because they clearly aren't safe, the dealer is bypassing the legally required speed restriction.

Its also possible that dealers selling dongled bikes and sPedelecs who describe them "as being suitable for offroad us" could also be liable under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.

Looking forward to reading your responses.

 

[Artstu]

in the interests of getting this thread back onto a postive discussion.

Amusing, sadly not very positive in the vein of the thread starter Martin, remember him?

...Is what everyone said when Haibike took the first ever Bosch eMTB to EuroBike in 2011.
Boy they were wrong!

4 years later and Europe now peaking over 500,000 eBikes a year, the biggest growth factor being the electric mountain bikes.

 

[soundwave]

right i have a katana and buy law i can not take this out side or use it in public and im reg with the police as having also but if i went out and chopped someone in half with it id be the 1 getting done not the place i got it from or the importer.

same as if i bought a jet cat for a rc plane even pre built buy alls hobbys will not be liable for it even tho they built it and goes as fast as a missile.


or say i was at a event with 1 and lost control, no signal id be the 1 getting done not where i bought it from i cant see it happening tbh.

 

[Gubbins]

I suppose its all in the small print! And who actually reads the small print?

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

I think I am tired of reading through now. All we need is a solicitor to just say 2 clear words and that's it ( they never do though).

The way I see it is: want to be legal? Don't buy any dongle.

Want to risk your warranty?
Get a dongle from the dealer.

Want to be even mor risky and unethical?
Get a dongle online and don't tell anyone.

I know I may sound blunt but no point hiding behind our finger. Those are the 3 possible options and people already know it.

 

[dinger19]

I think I am tired of reading through now. All we need is a solicitor to just say 2 clear words and that's it ( they never do though).

The way I see it is: want to be legal? Don't buy any dongle.

Want to risk your warranty?
Get a dongle from the dealer.

[\QUOTE]


Irresponsible dealers will offer a dongle as an option to an unsuspecting customer reason not everyone that buys an ebike will visit forums like this and therefore won't be told it will effect there warranty and more importantly won't be aware there breaking the law .

 

[dinger19]

Irresponsible dealers will offer a dongle as an option to an unsuspecting customer reason not everyone that buys an ebike will visit forums like this and therefore won't be told it will effect there warranty and more importantly won't be aware there breaking the law .

 

[anotherkiwi]

This thread has inspired me to go on a mission: Build an s-pedelec, get it through the current registration procedure, insure and register it as a moped before series type approval etc. comes into force.

Then procede to ride it with a German speed pedelec helmet, not a motorbike helmet.

Either I can bluff my way out of fines "It's a bleeding bike not a scooter, here you try and ride it with a motorbike helmet on!" or take it all the way to court and plead that s-pedelecs are not mopeds and you can not pedal a bike (even one that is capable of 45 kph under motor power) with a motorbike helmet on your head (I think that it is even dangerous to do so). Hell maybe even go through a speed camera at over 45 kph while pedaling downhill and ask why a pedelec can do 60 kph and not an s-pedelec.

Someone has to go there and show the ridiculousness of these classes.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

I don't think anyone would not be aware that the bike costs x and the bike + dongle costs x+150£. Let's not underestimate the level of knowledge of an ebike buyer.

I haven't bought one yet and I Googled quite a bit before I chose one to decide and you easily fall on to the dongles and what they do. So I don't agree with the existence of unsespective buyer.

 

[Gubbins]

So you go into a bike shop and are asked do you want a dongle fitting? Oh yes stick one in.. I don't think so? No one would spend an extra £150 without asking what it does. All this legal clap trap goes over my head anyway. .

 

[Gubbins]

Is it time to put this to bed.. We have heard from KTM and fully understand their position which has been explained over and over and over, which some agree with and some dont, but honestly does any one really care? Its a bit like having a small beer and then nipping out to the shop, you know you are under the limit, but you also know you shouldn't be doing it..
I cant believe that anyone buying or using a dongle is unaware of the implications, and anyone that is unaware wouldn't think to buy one anyway...
This has been an entertaining thread, well its getting more like a blanket, but I am sure the subject will be re-aired in the not too distant future..

Now for some totally useless information..
A non athlete cyclist pedaling at a high cadence can use 60% of their energy just moving their legs..

 

[flecc]

Now for some totally useless information..
A non athlete cyclist pedaling at a high cadence can use 60% of their energy just moving their legs..

Especially the obese ones!
.