Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Once again Zlatan stop making up what I posted because you are so utterly clueless about the background to all this.

My criticism of the USA was about the way they rejected the entirely reasonable Mikhail Ivanovich Gorbachov as president by using covert CIA action to get rid of him, in favour of Boris Yeltsin. That was because they were too impatient for Gorbachov's planned conversion from Communism to Capitalism that Europe favoured and preferred Yeltsin's "plan" for a sudden switch.

We all saw the total chaos that resulted from the drunken Yeltsin's plan didnt we?

Yeltsin needed someone utterly ruthless to carry out his "plan", so he promoted Putin in three rapid steps, first to head of the FSB, second almost immediately after to Prime Minister and then to President when he resigned, too ill from his alcoholism to carry on.

You can see that if the USA had never interfered we'd have had a stable democratic Russia as a friend via Gorbachov's Perestroika and Glasnost plan. That involved the ordinary Russian people with the European countries helping, leading the change from Communism to capitalism, not the Russian leadership dictating it.

Mikhail Ivanovich as a promoter of the change to Western ideals even when the USSR was still in power would never under any circumstances have favoured using a brutal thug like Putin. Nor would the European leaders helping the Russian system changeover.

So all the of the ills that have resulted from Putins brutal reign have been due to the USA's interference, as ever thinking they know best how to run the world when they very obviously don't.




NOT TRUE

Encircling Russia with a wall of NATO countries despite even Putin making peaceful overtures decades ago was a belligerent act

The Balkans and Afghanistan regime change were invasions and belligerent acts.

The two Gulf Wars, one based entirely on lies, plus the 12 years of the brutal US no fly zone would all have been NATO actions but for the mainland Eurpean countries refusing to join in since they saw how wrong they were. These three were invasions and belligerent acts costing hundreds of thousands of lives, mostly of entirely innocent people.
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Give up Flecc. Your entire attitude as been as apologist towards Putin. During the Salisbury episode every possible excuse for Putin was the narrative on here, from blaming Portland Down, claiming we hadn't proof it was Putin and using every possible situation to put route cause on our Government. Putin saw that, and the fact so little was actually done over his annexing, bombings and attrocities he could take larger steps. Russians even said as much. What was it. "West will introduce sanctions but soon come back to do business"
I wondered then if some on here are actually Russian bots, listening to some of your reasoning convinces me.
The West has done nothing to provoke this war. On the other hand Putin had committed numerous acts of terrorism, acts of war, annexations and now invasions.
Only reason he has been allowed to get away with it is because West is do frightened of WW3 or Nuclear Attacks. Had Putin not had WMD at his disposal this confrontation would have happened years ago.
And, you still refuse to answer question. What would your reaction be if Putin was invading Italy. High time you answered that before offering pretentious comments about my views.
And as for your self acclaimed better knowledge of region, situation and history... Isn't Google wonderful.

 

[Zlatan]

Again, that means WW3 with nuclear weapons used.
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A gangster with WMD. Yet you blame US and West for his encirclement. Which is utter rubbish. Have you seen size of Russia.
We should have offered him a cup of tea, embraced his joining NATO/EU.I wonder where that would have ended.
EU could have orchestrated free drugs for athletes, poisoned all his dissenters and lent him drones to invade Ukraine. Not to mention divulging every secret we have about military hardware.

 

[wheeler]

Was surprised to see this:

Switzerland, a favourite destination for Russian oligarchs, has set aside its tradition of neutrality and announced that it will adopt all the sanctions already imposed by the European Union on Russia.


Following a government meeting on Monday, Switzerland’s president Ignazio Cassis said that the country would immediately freeze the assets of Russia’s president Vladimir Putin, prime minister Mikhail Mishustin and foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, as well as all 367 individuals sanctioned last week by the EU.


Cassis told reporters today:





In a statement, the Swiss government said it will implement the sanctions in coordination with the EU, adding that these were “primarily goods and financial sanctions”.




In so doing, Switzerland is responding to the serious violations of international law for which these individuals are responsible

That'll be them kicked off the waiting list for a new Rolex Sub or Daytona. Hits them where it really hurts.

 

[oyster]

That'll be them kicked off the waiting list for a new Rolex Sub or Daytona. Hits them where it really hurts.

In the tik-toks.

 

[wheeler]

There is a 40 mile long Russian convoy heading towards Kyiv. Is this not what the military describe as "a target rich environment"?

 

[flecc]

And as for your self acclaimed better knowledge of region, situation and history... Isn't Google wonderful.

My posts are entirely knowledge from the time. You should know this since you were an adult in your late 20s and early 30s at the time of the events I commented on. So either you are being disingenuous or your memory of current affairs from the late 1980s to the early 2000s is sadly lacking.

Google and the like are probably a waste of time currently, given that the first victim of war is the truth. If I had used them I would have posted links as proof of what I was posting, but of course I haven't since my memory, though exceptional, can't provide links.

However I notice you have been relying on links in your replies to me, illustrating where your scant "knowledge" is from.
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[Zlatan]

My posts are entirely knowledge from the time. You should know this since you were an adult in your late 20s and early 30s at the time of the events I commented on. So either you are being disingenuous or your memory of current affairs from the late 1980s to the early 2000s is sadly lacking.

Google and the like are probably a waste of time currently, given that the first victim of war is the truth. If I had used them I would have posted links as proof of what I was posting, but of course I haven't since my memory, though exceptional, can't provide links.

However I notice you have been relying on links in your replies to me, illustrating where your scant "knowledge" is from.
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Good try flecc. I, ve read much of your posts elsewhere.
You still have not answered the question. Perhaps because it can't be googled.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

We cannot use planes or drones to shoot down Russian planes or helicopters since it would constitute NATO declaring war on Russia, WW3. That is why for the same reason we cannot institute a "no fly" zone since enforcing it would mean shooting down Russian aircraft.
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Russia is committing war crimes, as it did in Syria and chechen war. That's a legal basis for lethal force. There's more chance of putin using wmd when he becomes more belligerently entitled. When faced with an out of control homicidal maniac, one does not try to mediate (or take tentative shots at their knees), one empties the gun on where it hurts most, several times.

 

[flecc]

What would your reaction be if Putin was invading Italy.

The same in one respect, I would see it as totally wrong. But since it's a hypothetical question I can't answer further.

The Ukraine invasion though isn't hypothetical so I've been able to comment much further, such as explaining why Putin has acted as he's done. In your mind you seem to think that means I am excusing his actions. I am not in any way, they are inexcusable, nothing less.

How can I be supporting Putin when I've posted these:

In Post 105,115:
" I strongly dislike both Putin and his methods but I comment fairly on his tactics and strategy. He's often clever and frequently runs rings around the West, but at other times he is unbelievably stupid."

That isn't support, it's comment.

How can I be supporting Putin when I've so strongly criticised the USA for putting him into power.

That isn't support, it's showing how unacceptable Putin is.
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[flecc]

Russia is committing war crimes, as it did in Syria and chechen war. That's a legal basis for lethal force. There's more chance of putin using wmd when he becomes more belligerently entitled. When faced with an out of control homicidal maniac, one does not try to mediate (or take tentative shots at their knees), one empties the gun on where it hurts most, several times.

What has that reply to do with my post? In that post I pointed out that NATO shooting down Russian planes meant a nuclear WW3 would follow.

Only a lunatic would advocate that. Even the nut cases in the Kremlin and the Pentagon won't go beyond putting them on alert.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Russia is committing war crimes, as it did in Syria and chechen war. That's a legal basis for lethal force. There's more chance of putin using wmd when he becomes more belligerently entitled. When faced with an out of control homicidal maniac, one does not try to mediate (or take tentative shots at their knees), one empties the gun on where it hurts most, several times.

Seems we are going to stand by and observe Ukrainians killed in their thousands because we daren't, in fear of WW3, defend them. We could. Perhaps we should accept WW3 has already started and go help.

 

[Woosh]

Perhaps we should accept WW3 has already started and go help.

if that were true, the air will be poisoned with radioactive dust.
Nobody wins anything, nobody can help anyone.

 

[Zlatan]

The same in one respect, I would see it as totally wrong. But since it's a hypothetical question I can't answer further.

The Ukraine invasion though isn't hypothetical so I've been able to comment much further, such as explaining why Putin has acted as he's done. In your mind you seem to think that means I am excusing his actions. I am not in any way, they are inexcusable, nothing less.

How can I be supporting Putin when I've posted these:

In Post 105,115:
" I strongly dislike both Putin and his methods but I comment fairly on his tactics and strategy. He's often clever and frequently runs rings around the West, but at other times he is unbelievably stupid."

That isn't support, it's comment.

How can I be supporting Putin when I've so strongly criticised the USA for putting him into power.

That isn't support, it's showing how unacceptable Putin is.
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I think your comments about heroes and Ukrainians being stupid for defending their freedoms tainted your comments.
We should have stood up to Putin years ago. Salisbury, Crimea, Georgia, Livchenko were all episodes that should have caused reactions by West we, ve recently seen. People are dying in Ukraine because of our appeasement and procrastination. Frightening as it is, its always better to confront evil sooner than later.

 

[Zlatan]

if that were true, the air will be poisoned with radioactive dust.
Nobody wins anything, nobody can help anyone.

What is happening in Ukraine Woosh? That dust might not be radioactive but its in the lungs of people who were free last week.
WW1 started in Sarajevo with a single death. Putin has taken the first step in WW3.
What happens when Putin takes Ukraine? We just forget about it.??
What happens if he doesn't? We carry on supplying Ukrainians until they retake Ukraine?
Afraid I don't see an end to this.
Putin will not back down.
I do wonder if Ukraine has a big surprise for Putin. They have had years to prepare and have being getting supplies from all over place. The narrative is David against Goliath. I wonder if David has rather more than a sling and Goliath is gathering within range and well in Ukraine..??

 

[flecc]

I think your comments about heroes and Ukrainians being stupid for defending their freedoms tainted your comments.

It's because I really care about their lives and don't want to see them killed or horribly maimed. It is always stupid to take on an opponent who you know will win, this is the one area where the human animal is very inferior in intelligence to almost all of the other animals.

They normally do their best to avoid conflict leading to injury since the instinctively know death could follow, usually varying from that only when the temporary irrationality of reproduction takes hold.

We human animals have some very silly notions about heroism and bravery even when the needs of procreation are not present..

I'm hoping the people of Mariupol gave up quickly today in the face of the onslaught on four fronts, rather than uselessly sacrificing themselves. Once Mariupol is lost and Putin has achieved his real objective of the land link to the Crimea, there is a good chance of his calling it a day with a mutually face saving agreement in the following talks.
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[Zlatan]

It's because I really care about their lives and don't want to see them killed or horribly maimed. It is always stupid to take on an opponent who you know will win, this is the one area where the human animal is very inferior in intelligence to almost all of the other animals.

They normally do their best to avoid conflict leading to injury since the instinctively know death could follow, usually varying from that only when the temporary irrationality of reproduction takes hold.

We human animals have some very silly notions about heroism and bravery even when the needs of procreation are not present..

I'm hoping the people of Mariupol gave up quickly today in the face of the onslaught on four fronts, rather than uselessly sacrificing themselves. Once Mariupol is lost and Putin has achieved his real objective of the land link to the Crimea, there is a good chance of his calling it a day with a mutually face saving agreement in the following talks.
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I understand that view and in many ways its sensible.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

What has that reply to do with my post? In that post I pointed out that NATO shooting down Russian planes meant a nuclear WW3 would follow.

Only a lunatic would advocate that. Even the nut cases in the Kremlin and the Pentagon won't go beyond putting them on alert.
.

No it doesn't. Colluding with the threat of ww3 by a megalomaniac that's bluffing may, though. The use of overwhelming force in war is very well established doctrine. We wouldn't be where we are in Syria (or as a result with a more beligerent russia) if we were more assrrtive then.

 

[Woosh]

What happens when Putin takes Ukraine? We just forget about it.??

no, we are not going to forget it but we should not act hastily either, it will just make matters worse.
The reason Putin can do what he did is because the Russian generals and a sizeable chunk of the Russian population support his action.
We have to unite as many countries as possible to confront him. On this, the EU is the natural leader because Putin's action affect the 27 EU countries directly. However, the EU has only a budget, not an army. It is now clear that it will need an army or at least an air force and nuclear deterrent but that will take time.
I think Ukraine will be partitioned. Western Ukraine will need EU's protection so it will have to deal with the usual conditions: adoption of EU human right convention, adoption of the Euro etc. The wall between East and West Ukraine will come down in time, all for a better Europe in due course.

 

[Danidl]

if NATO aircraft, on loan to the Ukrainian air force, shoots up some Russian tanks then it would be reasonable to expect Russians to retaliate.
NATO has time on its side. It has to drag out until common sense prevails.

NATO countries are fully within its rights to loan, rent, lease or sell any of their property to the Ukrainian Government. They can supply any munitions as well. What they cannot do is man piloted aircraft and engage in a shooting war with Russia's Aircraft or soldiers. .. Well they could but the first time one is shot down and the pilot identified as from NATO, we get WW3 . So at present I would not be surprised if someone was painting new blue and yellow insignia over RAF roundels or USAF stars. on drones ,And flying them over to airfields in Ukraine.

 

[flecc]

No it doesn't.

I think it does mean nuclear war:

The combined population of the NATO Countries:

944 million, over 12 % of the world's population.

The population of Russia:

144 million, 1.8% of the world's population.

Overwhelmed by these immense odds against him, who knows what a trapped brutal thug like Putin might do. I suggest to satisfy his immense ego he might end his life by taking everyone else with him as far as possible.

Remember Andreas Lubitz who wanted to commit suicide so deliberately crashed his airliner killing all 144 passengers and 6 crew?

That's what self important people can do.
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