Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

What has that got to do with it... We keel hauled sailors in 18th century, but that's irrelevant too.
Russia are the aggressors, they are attempting to invade a sovereign Independant democratic state yet somehow you justify it and blame Ukrainians, USA/UK/EU for Putin's mental decision. You then go on to tell people who disagree with your barmy stance that they aren't qualified to comment.. Like you are.
And by the way events are proving you wrong already. The war in Ukraine will not be a quick fix unless Putin sees sense and withdraws.
It seems the world in almost all cases blames Russia, sees Russia as cause and that Ukrainians need help.? Where does that leave your "its their own stupid fault".

One day you'll hopefully learn how to read and understand, instead of putting your spin on what I post.

Of course Russia are the aggressors, but with a valid reason.

I haven't said the Ukraine conflict would be quick. I said it would be limited to the small objectives I spelt out because Russia cannot possibly hold down Ukraine long term. They can't even hold all of it short term.

I have not blamed the West for Putins decision. I have blamed the USA for putting him into power, thus being responsible for what he's done.

That is why I do know better than those of you arguing with me from a few days of recent knowledge. I know the whole long background of how the USA put Putin where he is. You clearly don't have a clue about that, relying instead on the brainwashing you've received over the years.
.

 

[Zlatan]

One day you'll hopefully learn how to read and understand, instead of putting your spin on what I post.

Of course Russia are the aggressors, but with a valid reason.

I haven't said the Ukraine conflict would be quick. I said it would be limited to the small objectives I spelt out because Russia cannot possibly hold down Ukraine long term. They can't even hold all of it short term.

I have not blamed the West for Putins decision. I have blamed the USA for putting him into power, thus being responsible for what he's done.

That is why I do know better than those of you arguing with me from a few days of recent knowledge. I know the whole long background of how the USA put Putin where he is. You clearly don't have a clue about that, relying instead on the brainwashing you've received over the years.
.

Who and why Putin got in power is utterly irrelevant.
We are where we are. Putin head of state in Russia chooses to invade an Independant sovereign democracy.
Your comments have proven you do not know better. Quite the reverse.
You are wrong.
It's highly likely Putin will have to resort to war crimes and genocide in his attempts to control Ukraine. 200k soldiers to invade a country of 40 million leaves him little other options. And his invaders have taken with them thermo bardic weapons for that very purpose. No doubt that's not Putins fault either.

 

[flecc]

No doubt that's not Putins fault either.

Not only have I never said that, in fact it's almost all Putin's fault of course.

That blame shared with who put him where he is. The USA, while knowing exactly what he is like.

But this current conflict was entirely avoidable by Ukraine acting sensibly instead of deliberately stoking the fire.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Not only have I never said that, in fact it's almost all Putin's fault of course.

That blame shared with who put him where he is. The USA, while knowing exactly what he is like.

But this current conflict was entirely avoidable by Ukraine acting sensibly instead of deliberately stoking the fire.
.

Stoking the fire, standing there to be shot at. How stupid of them.
How dare they form a democracy.

 

[oldgroaner]

what the world need now is...............BUSAB

 

[flecc]

Germany likely to back UK/EU requests to prevent Swift payments for Russia.

A provision has been made excluding energy from this Swift measure so that the West can continue to buy Russian gas and oil. Because they have to of course.

Turkey refusing Russian frigates access to Black Sea.

The Turkish foreign minister has said Turkey cannot stop Russian warships accessing the Black Sea via its straits, as Ukraine has requested, due to a clause in an international pact.

You really should stop making up this sort of nonsense Zlatan.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

what the world need now is...............BUSAB

Or Dead Hand, things are suddenly getting much more interesting

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60542877

Now Russia is trying to hold the world hostage, not just the democratic neighbour, or belarus

 

[Zlatan]

A provision has been made excluding energy from this Swift measure so that the West can continue to buy Russian gas and oil. Because they have to of course.



The Turkish foreign minister has said Turkey cannot stop Russian warships accessing the Black Sea via its straits, as Ukraine has requested, due to a clause in an international pact.

You really should stop making up this sort of nonsense Zlatan.
.

I notice in interests of accuracy you, ve removed my question mark from original statement,and taken it completely out of context.
I think it's time you saw things, specifically Putin /Russia, as they are. Now threatening nuclear war. Its not enough for him to invade a democratic neighbour justified with a pack of lies.
Perhaps the only beneficial aspect of this terrible episode is the united condemnation from rest of world. Berlin saw 100,000 protesters assembling in joint criticism of the lunatic Putin.
Seems his attempted conquest is going so bad he has to try and rely on Chechans, Nuclear threats and now even agreeing to talk with a Government he is attempting to over throw.
Germany for first time since WW2 supplying arms to another country and passing agreements to up their own defence spending budget by 100 billion euro.
Putin really has let genie out the bottle. Just worries me how desperate he will get and his likely actions to avoid his demise. What happens next? Finland and Sweden both contemplating joining NATO. He is causing exactly what he didn't want.
What does he expect Finland to do.. Roll over as he expected Ukraine and offer him a cup of tea??
Hasn't Russia learnt from its past with Finland? Afghanistan? Finland did exactly what Ukraine is doing now in 1939. Yes, succumbed eventually but not after a great deal of humiliation. Putin has doomed Russia or even the World. Is he man enough to back down... Nope, just insane enough to keep digging. And for what. A dream of a resurgent Russian Empire. He is seriously deluded and out of touch with world at large and his own people.

 

[Danidl]

Not at all clear what Musk has done.

I'd have thought the primary limiting factor would have been availability of devices to communicate with such satellites, rather than location of the satellites.

Ukraine needs a large shipment of appropriate devices.

And then wait to see Russian attempts at blocking...

The point would be that it is impossible to block a low altitude satellite ,if one has the appropriate terminal. Now it might be a better idea if multiple terminals were located in Russia. It is obvious that the Russians are ill informed.

 

[Danidl]

I notice in interests of accuracy you, ve removed my question mark from original statement,and taken it completely out of context.
I think it's time you saw things, specifically Putin /Russia, as they are. Now threatening nuclear war. Its not enough for him to invade a democratic neighbour justified with a pack of lies.
Perhaps the only beneficial aspect of this terrible episode is the united condemnation from rest of world. Berlin saw 100,000 protesters assembling in joint criticism of the lunatic Putin.

I try not to comment about foreign politicians, but the comment by Liz Truss this morning was absolutely the wrong thing to say. She said she would encourage British Citizens to go and fight in Ukraine.... The implication of that is that the UK would send its own" little green men " , to the Ukraine . We know that the 2014 ones in the Crimea were Russian Special Forces, and Putin will obviously expect that the British will do the same. Now its bad enough that ex NATO General s are talking about no fly zones , but at least they were not Ministers of State. She is a senior Minister ... I suspect that Putin's nuclear weapons statement was a reference to that.

 

[flecc]

I think it's time you saw things, specifically Putin /Russia, as they are.

Perhaps the only beneficial aspect of this terrible episode is the united condemnation from rest of world.

I do see things as they are, and it's why I see your "beneficial" as being anything but, since this could all go very wrong.

I dont mean nuclear war, that is not going to happen. What I mean is that the current situation if Putin fails in Ukraine due to western material support will most likely drive Russia further away into even greater enmity.

Russia is essentially self supporting and no stranger to hardship, so they could entirely cut off gas, oil and grain supplies to the West, relying on a little support from China for the very few essentials it does not have. That would have a devastating effect on the worlds markets and particularly hurt Europe.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I do see things as they are, and it's why I see your "beneficial" as being anything but, since this could all go very wrong.

I dont mean nuclear war, that is not going to happen. What I mean is that the current situation if Putin fails in Ukraine due to western material support will most likely drive Russia further away into even greater enmity.

Russia is essentially self supporting and no stranger to hardship, so they could entirely cut off gas, oil and grain supplies to the West, relying on a little support from China for the very few essentials it does not have. That would have a devastating effect on the worlds markets and particularly hurt Europe.
.

And if Putin succeeds in Ukraine it's OK for you and me (for the time being) but Ukrainians lose freedoms, democracy and their own governance just for Putin's sake.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I try not to comment about foreign politicians, but the comment by Liz Truss this morning was absolutely the wrong thing to say. She said she would encourage British Citizens to go and fight in Ukraine.... The implication of that is that the UK would send its own" little green men " , to the Ukraine . We know that the 2014 ones in the Crimea were Russian Special Forces, and Putin will obviously expect that the British will do the same. Now its bad enough that ex NATO General s are talking about no fly zones , but at least they were not Ministers of State. She is a senior Minister ... I suspect that Putin's nuclear weapons statement was a reference to that.

So sending little green men to occupy a democratic neighbour, stoke conflict is the same as sending little green men to help a democratic state defend itself against a fascist invader? I think not.

 

[oyster]

Interesting post on Twitter re closure of airpaces to Russia:

Dave Keating


@DaveKeating

Russian planes can no longer fly West. An Aeroflot plane carrying civilians is reported to have just made a dramatic u-turn over the Baltic Sea as airspace was closed.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497943577753702402

 

[flecc]

And if Putin succeeds in Ukraine it's OK for you and me (for the time being) but Ukrainians lose freedoms, democracy and their own governance just for Putin's sake.

No. As I posted and you agree, Russia cannot hold onto Ukraine. They have neither the manpower nor the resources to hold onto such a large hostile population.

They are only there to do as I described and will then withdraw if they succeed. Just as they did with Georgia 13 years ago. Of course Putin would love to be able to hold onto Ukraine but he knows that is impossible. He may not even succeed in doing what he intends.
.

 

[Danidl]

So sending little green men to occupy a democratic neighbour, stoke conflict is the same as sending little green men to help a democratic state defend itself against a fascist invader? I think not.

Now the situation in Crimea in 2014 was much different than even the Donbass . The entire Crimea was as Russian as say Portsmouth or the Solent is British. It also has as spiritual value to the Russian mindset as Stone henge. The fact it was allocated to Ukraine at the dissolution of the USSR was almost accidental. My point is that if little green men were illegal and wrong then , it is equally as wrong now, ..but even more so because it gave Putin ammunition. If any UK Citizen ,goes and gets captured by Russians in a weeks time, the Russians will say its NATO special Forces , and therefore nuclear standoff,. You then get all the disadvantages of NATO standoff, whereas if there was NATO engagement this week, there would be no fly zones

 

[oyster]

The Turkish foreign minister has said Turkey cannot stop Russian warships accessing the Black Sea via its straits, as Ukraine has requested, due to a clause in an international pact.

You really should stop making up this sort of nonsense Zlatan.
.

Turkey seems to have no problem stopping them now:

Turkey’s foreign ministry has signalled that it intends to block Russian warships from passing through the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits that lead to the Black Sea, a shift in Turkey’s formerly neutral position where officials underlined alliances with both Russia and Ukraine.


“We came to the conclusion that the situation in Ukraine has turned into a war,” said Turkish foreign minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu. “We will apply the Montreux provisions transparently.”


Turkey controls both straits under the Montreux convention, granting it the power to block the passage of Russian and Ukrainian warships, providing they are not returning to their permanent bases in the Black Sea.


The convention means the straits can be blocked if a conflict meets the definition of a war.

 

[Zlatan]

And if Putin succeeds in Ukraine it's OK for you and me (for the time being) but Ukrainians lose freedoms, democracy and their own governance just for Putin's sake.

Now the situation in Crimea in 2014 was much different than even the Donbass . The entire Crimea was as Russian as say Portsmouth or the Solent is British. It also has as spiritual value to the Russian mindset as Stone henge. The fact it was allocated to Ukraine at the dissolution of the USSR was almost accidental. My point is that if little green men were illegal and wrong then , it is equally as wrong now, ..but even more so because it gave Putin ammunition. If any UK Citizen ,goes and gets captured by Russians in a weeks time, the Russians will say its NATO special Forces , and therefore nuclear standoff,. You then get all the disadvantages of NATO standoff, whereas if there was NATO engagement this week, there would be no fly zones

I agree it's very dangerous and probably both counter productive and plays into Putin's hands allowing private (none Ukrainian) individuals access to fighting in Ukraine.. All sorts of issues..

 

[Zlatan]

Turkey seems to have no problem stopping them now:

Turkey’s foreign ministry has signalled that it intends to block Russian warships from passing through the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits that lead to the Black Sea, a shift in Turkey’s formerly neutral position where officials underlined alliances with both Russia and Ukraine.


“We came to the conclusion that the situation in Ukraine has turned into a war,” said Turkish foreign minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu. “We will apply the Montreux provisions transparently.”


Turkey controls both straits under the Montreux convention, granting it the power to block the passage of Russian and Ukrainian warships, providing they are not returning to their permanent bases in the Black Sea.


The convention means the straits can be blocked if a conflict meets the definition of a war.

Turkey has had close military ties with Ukraine for quite a while. Arms/ammunition passing both ways over last decade or so and I believe they share intelligence. It's been an issue for both NATO and Russia.
Some NATO members have expressed concern over Turkeys reliability, but they are showing at moment to be fully supportive of Ukraine, but then again who isn't? Hungary have made their minds up and abandoned Russia. Chechans and Belarus seem only real allies for them. China seems to be distancing themselves but at moment that is inconclusive.

 

[oyster]

but then again who isn't?

Belarus.

And pretty much no-one else.