To quote Sir Kenny Dalglish, "meebies aye, meebies naw".
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
I said that because I'd like to see Scotland back into the EU. We'll all be back in eventually, at first bit by bit with a myriad of little agreements, leading to eventual EEC status at least.
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Yes, Corbyn would have been infinitely better and definitely secured the win.Starmer really needs to go
The future has been cancelled due to lack of intelligence
The problem Labour has is that no one knows what they are about. I have no idea what’s on offer.
Sorry Flecc can't agree with that. Think it's actually part of problem.
Blaming electorate, media, Tories and anyone else is missing point and it has accompanied socialists movement into oblivion.
Part of labour's psyche is now blame somebody else without examing exactly what they do stand for.
Electorate would vote for a coherent, unified Labour Party if they could show both successful economic policies and caring approach to less fortunate... But they do neither. They argue amongst themselves and attack government.
When I was involved in selling big yachts we had golden rule. Never ever knock other builders. They are good, bull them up but then explain carefully why we are better.
Momentum are now having a go at Starmer...Its crazy. They have had more criticism of him than Tories... They do their job for them.
There is no place anymore for extremes of either end of spectrum. You can knock this government til you are blue in face but without doubt they are most centrist Tories in history. Labour haven't moved into that space, they have seen this shift as a reason to go further left. They should be centrist. Blair without the lies, war, Campbell and his affinity to money and Bush.
Yes, we all know Blair is now disliked but he got in power and stayed. Time socialists realised Blair (or his ilk) is as near to socialism as we can ever get.
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Corbyn would also have lost, but far less badly since the left support him but dont support Starmer. Hence that disastrous result.
Whats on offer is a repeat of Blair. A well to do barrister pretending to be Labour leading a party of MPs split beween being true socialists and those who are pseudo Tory for expediency, AKA Blairites.
There's been a long history of this, the Gang of Four, Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Bill Rodgers, and Shirley Williams left Labour to form the Social Democrats since they were never really true socialists and realised that the nation weren't either.
The people only want fantasy socialism, all of the benefits but none of the costs.
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what do you mean?
True socialists like Corbyn would like all the benefits paid for by those who are wealthy.
Blair split the cost more equally.
Very true, but it's never worked in politics and never will.
There is no longer a place for a true socialist Labour party in this country. Blair tried the confidence trick approach and ultimately failed, which is why Starmer couldn't succeed doing the same.
The only way Labour can ever come back is if the Tories really mess up and the public vote Labour only to get theTories out.
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No, I meant what I posted.
Forget Blair, he failed as yesterday's man as his Starmer clone has also failed now.
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Blair could have gone down in history as a great PM. The lies, the war and his respect for Bush destroyed his tenure and legacy. Knock on affect is Labour still in disarray.
I, d vote for a Blair type (again) if he was leader of a unified party. I like Blair. He did have, or appear to, have a good balance between capitalism and care. Its actually the same as picked up by Cameron and now Boris. Making Labour redundant... But if a Labour leader could offer same I, d bet electorate would vote for them. (if Momentum and Unite could be lost somehow)
Its neither socialism or Labour which is dead. Its Momentum and Unite. Folk don't want either. They are both seen for what they are. Radical extremes representing a disappearing group. Time Unite and Momentum moved into 21st century and stop holding Labour to ransom. How many more strongholds must they lose before they cotton on.
I, d vote for a Blair type (again) if he was leader of a unified party. I like Blair. He did have, or appear to, have a good balance between capitalism and care. Its actually the same as picked up by Cameron and now Boris. Making Labour redundant... But if a Labour leader could offer same I, d bet electorate would vote for them. (if Momentum and Unite could be lost somehow)
Its neither socialism or Labour which is dead. Its Momentum and Unite. Folk don't want either. They are both seen for what they are. Radical extremes representing a disappearing group. Time Unite and Momentum moved into 21st century and stop holding Labour to ransom. How many more strongholds must they lose before they cotton on.
There can be no such thing in this small "c" conservative country, with so few people being true working class any more we cannot get enough socialist MPs elected to form even half a winning party.
What you keep arguing for is what we've already got in the LibDems and look at how successful they are. Remember they were the Social Democrat Party originally formed by four ex labour MPs.
So why repeat failure, which is what you are advocating?
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It's not Starmer failing though, it's Tories winning. Starmer could be sort of successful without dragging the anchor of Unite and Momentum. Policy makers in Labour are sort of right. Starmer could be right man... If Labour were sorted.
Changing to another leader won't alter a thing.
Because country historically would never vote lib dem. They have failed before starting.
Listen to Labour today.. "we need to be more socialist" (just on news)
They never learn. We don't have left wing voters. They do not exist.
The writing is on the wall. Hartlepool Conservative.. First time ever.
Labour must change or disappear.
Labour must move centrist or our democracy is not working and doomed.
We have a one party system. Nobody in their right minds can support that.
Why can't Labour represent the voters who want them to. Its bordering on insane.
The red wall actually wants to vote Labour but can't. They won't support Unite/Momentum. They would Starmer.
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Exactly, and why we cannot have the Labour party!
Why do you think Blair changed the name to New Labour? It was to escape the Labour image, but that didn't work well enough eventually. Only a completely new replacement non socialist party can work, Labour can't.
In this small "c" conservative country we can vote in enough conservatives to form a Tory government. That's because conservative is what we English predominantly are, and it is a broad church.
We cannot vote in enough left wing socialists to form a government.
We cannot vote in enough moderate socialists to form a government.
We cannot vote in enough Liberals to form a government.
The solution has long been known in Europe, proportional representation.
Without that you are spitting into the wind.
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What we call it is actually immaterial. It's a handle, a label.
Sad fact is with such little opposition we only have Tories. Personally I, d rather have a viable alternative even if it only had slightly more left policies. As it is we have either Tories or a Labour party still dominated by Unions and or Momentum.
Why should Unions still have block voting yet those same members can already exercise their democratic right at polling stations.
IMHO its high time Unions were separated from political parties.
I wonder if we, d see a surge in Labour Party membership if McCluskey and Co were not seen as controlling influences within party. IMHO its the way forward. Would initially be a weaker party but over a few years a new section would, or could, be attracted.
Two Jags and McCluskey are from a bygone age. Time Labour realised.
It will be exactly 8 weeks tomorrow since I had my first AZ jab, and I was wondering when I will be getting the second injection. The phone then rings and it's my local surgery I am now booked in on Tuesday morning for the second one.
When one sees on the news what is happening in countries like India and Brazil with regards to Covid and their vaccination programme, I'm glad I live in the UK and not over there.
Several people I know who had the first AZ vaccine and has some bad side effects had absolutely no effects (not even a sore arm) when they had the second jab.
When one sees on the news what is happening in countries like India and Brazil with regards to Covid and their vaccination programme, I'm glad I live in the UK and not over there.
Several people I know who had the first AZ vaccine and has some bad side effects had absolutely no effects (not even a sore arm) when they had the second jab.
Have you quite finished Vicar?
The problem is quite simple, too many gullible people
Lucky you!
My second AZ jab was 14 weeks, six hours and 20 minutes after my first one, and then only because it was chased.
The first one had no appreciable side effects, but the second very much has had. Extreme exhaustion, tiredness and excessive sleeping that's still not gone and a very painful upper arm for six days.
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Interesting - as I have previously said, I see lots of patient reports. I think the majority have said the second AstraZeneca vaccination has had less impact that the first. Whereas for Pfizer it seems the other way round.
It is, of course, wrong to apply population statistics, even if accurate and valid, to individuals.
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Not so, the labour label is so discredited now for multiple reasons that it isn't acceptable. Too many reasons to dislike it to gain enough followers.
And even if that were not so, hardly anyone thinks of themselves as "labour" in the working sense now. The vast majority are effectively middle class and very long have been.
That's what Ted Heath meant in his term "Selsdon Man" at the Tory conference in the Selsdon Park Hotel in 1970, then winning the election. He was making the point that the old term for the working man, "The man on the Clapham Omnibus"no longer applied since all men were already more middle than working class.
That was 50 years ago, long before Blair, Starmer, McCluskie et al who are all an irrelevance in this discussion. Few men think of themselves as labouring any more. More typical are all those "working" men on their backsides using the bosses time to post in this pedelecs forum and social media right now.
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