Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
It's on its way.
Wales represents around 4% of UK population.
In fact it could be argued in England Labour are already there, an irrelevance.
In Hartleypool 2021 they managed 28% of the vote. In 1963 they managed 75%.
Its this attitude of not seeing reality which will ensure Labour's disappearance. We, ve had it all. Corbyn playing long game, boxing clever. Letting Tories win to pick up pieces after Brexit.
Labour have performed terribly, effectively UK has a single party democracy. Boris already has over an 80 seat majority. And yet Labour refuse to make fundamental changes and steer straight for the rocks.
McCluskey should go, the control unions exercise over Party should be broken. Starmer (or anybody) should have a free hand to take party where it needs to go. (to the right?) and not tethered to a political party stuck in 1950s dogma.
Its already in oblivion.
They have been playing into Tory hands for decades, its long enough now. It must change... Or die.
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Indeed, the so called United Kingdom is showing it's true colours in being more disunited than ever:
England, finally completing it's fundamentally small "c" conservative nature.
Wales reviving it's over century old Labour heritage, together with some nationalism.
Scotland reaffirming that it is in the 21st century a nationalist country with SNP dominance.
Northern Ireland's loyalists insisting on being entirely English conservative in nature and practice, joined at the hip.
Four totally different components, to call them United is ridiculous.
As I've repeatedly posted over the last four years, no matter who leads it or what policies it adopts, Labour can never hold power at Westminster again without the Scottish vote. As a party founded by a Scot and born out of now largely redundant trade unionism, they have only ever held power when dominant in Scotland and with the support of widely respected trade unions. Neither of those can happen again.
Time for the (Dis) United Kingdom to reform.
Federalise in the style of the USA, Canada and Australia with all component countries becoming federal states of one country with comprehensive local powers and taxation and a federal government only looking after joint interests. Letting those who want to be completely independent instead go to that future.
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The result in Wales saw rather too many tory votes for my liking. I wanted Labour to continue with at least as many seats as last time. But I also wanted a higher PC vote.
The attitude and apparent ignorance demonstrated day after day by many of the tory government is grotesque. Plus, several PC politicians have been saying much that needs saying. Though full independence might be a difficult path.
Labour lost because it is divided.
Its MPs are more interested in in-fighting than looking for policies to appeal to a post industrial and poorly educated population.
The Tories are arguably even more divided as Brexit showed so clearly.
A Labour Party cannot win as I've just explained, that is an absolute. They can only do better but never winning.
It's always been the case that only a party that is effectively conservative can win in England, and therefore now in the whole country. Blair tried that conversion but it ultimately failed. As people so often said at the time, what's the point of voting when there's no real choice?
There needs to be an effective voting choice, but that can only come with proportional representation. Our present United Kingdom structure and first past the post system has finally reached a terminal situation, something we've been heading towards ever since the Whigs lost power very long ago.
Something drastic has to change if we are not to be a one party conservative state, either break up the current United Kingdom or at least introduce proportional representation to temporarily patch the mess that that the UK is politically.
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In my own constituency, it is quite clear that more voted against the tories - even in this part of Wales.
FPTP does us a severe disservice.
| Paul Davies, Conservative | 12,295 | 39.01% |
| Jackie Jones, Labour | 10,895 | 34.57% |
| Cris Tomos, Plaid Cymru | 6,135 | 19.47% |
| Alan Dennison, Reform UK | 1,239 | 3.93% |
| Tina Roberts, Liberal Democrats | 952 | 3.02% |
the tories' instinct is to cling on to power, they will unite when necessary whereas half of Labour apparatus are Marxists who know deep down they can't win power with their ideology and would rather control the party than address the needs of those who traditionally vote against the tories.
The simple truth is
Corbyn didn't dream up the 120,000 deaths due to Austerity
online journal BMJ Open, titled ‘Effects of health and social care spending constraints on mortality in England: a time trend analysis’, which hit the headlines in 2017.
As FactCheck and Full Fact have reported before, this study’s findings should be handled with care.
They didn't rubbish it did they?
The only "clear supposition was YOURS
I wasn't referring to the deaths due to Austerity, but the bungled Lockdown and Eat out to Help out fiascos
All Starmer has to do is represent those who wish to rejoin the EU
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Indeed, the liars versus the truthful, but it is at least a choice.
What you are refusing to face is that Labour cannot win power at Westminster without the Scottish vote. It doesn't matter who leads them or what their policies are, they can only ever be a runner up at best.
Face the fact that the SNP first won power in Scotland in 2007, sealing that future by gaining overall control in 2011.
Blair seeing the writing on the wall stepped down in that same year of 2007, handing over to Gordon Brown to 2010 and the GE, and the Tories have held power since 2010 and will continue to until a completely new conservative alternative arrives.
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I provided links dispelling both scenarios.
Wish it was so simple for Starmer. Afraid its rather deeper. Don't forget controlling influence in Labour are anti EU... (Corbyn picked up gauntlet from Tony Benn regarding EU, Corbyn, as I, ve told you before, never supported a single EU vote... He sat on fence over EU and hid his true feelings... And he still holds sway in party, via McCluskey. Afraid they are in utter disarray... Combined with issues Flecc highlights spells doom for Labour.
Only solution is to break free from unions, go centrist and offer more incentives for ordinary folk.. That might be another look at EU but doubt it.
your reasoning is illogical.
Labour does very well in Wales because they want to hold on to power.
Labour can win in England with someone who is not a Marxist, like Blair has demonstrated. There are more anti-tory votes than tory votes in England.
If Labour wins in England and Wales, there is no reason not to form an alliance with the SNP.
The main reason for Scotland to vote for separation is they don't want a conservative dictatorship.
Totally agreed.
Trouble is Blair is viewed as Torie lite, but that is exactly what country wants. Difference is if Labour offered it they would get historic vote, even if policies weren't left wing.
Todays lie for the Brexit faithful
This drug is licensed for use in the EU. It's been available to EU countries since 2016.
This drug is licensed for use in the EU. It's been available to EU countries since 2016.
The illogicality is yours since you are relying on falsehoods. Here's the truth:
Labour does do well in Wales, but due to history, ask Oyster in Wales. The Welsh will never forget how Winston Churchill sent in police and troops to crush a miners rebellion with some deaths resulting from troops opening fire. That action has been exaggerated over time, but the fact that it happened has had a serious effect on Conservative fortunes in Wales ever since, to the benefit of Labour. It's also relevant that some of our greatest politicians such as Aneurin Bevan have been Welsh Labour ones.
Blair did not demonstrate that Labour could win in England, his wins were dependent on the Scottish constituency votes just like all previous Labour wins. With him and his chancellor and successor Gordon Brown both being Scots, plus many key figures in his cabinets, that no doubt also influenced the voting of the very large number of Scots domiciled in England.
Since Scotland fell to the SNP, any party with Labour in its name has had no chance of winning a GE and that remains the case. Only a party that can win in England can win overall, and that has to be a fresh alternative conservative biased party. Throwing the Marxists out of the Labour party will simply leave them as an even smaller party, since the electorate will never be allowed to believe they've changed by the Tory press using all the usual lies and smear tactics.
And the main reason for Scotland to vote for separation is no longer that they don't want a conservative dictatorship, since they don't have one. For all except some internationally related matters like defence and diplomacy they govern themselves. Today's major reason they want independence is that they wanted to remain in the EU, voted very strongly for that, and resent being forced out of it.
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I agree distancing from unions, moving centrist would lead to short term further loss of votes/popularity but when electorate realise such as McCluskey no longer control party voters would return. Its no media lie that McCluskey has way more influence over party than he ever should. (he supported Ed Milliband over David for his left leaning views, which in long run proved disastrous)
In reality party doesn't really have an option, by your own opinion you agree Labour movement is doomed. It isn't heading for rocks, it's on them. Their only option is to split, forming 2 distinct parties. I don't accept your lib/dem argument.
Starmer as head of a true Independant movement with centrist policies and Corbyn (or another McCluskey puppet) could lead a left leaning party. They are two parties at moment, let voters decide which one has electorate backing.
Labour party will never get in no10 with union links, block votes and unelected activists such as McCluskey running the party.
Get David Milliband back, a group of competent Labour MPs, including Starmer, Blair, Ed Milliband and start again representing blue collar modern voters. Not the type Unite purport to help. It's their only option.
I, ve been saying it for 4 years on here now, our electorate has changed. There is no working class mentality any more. Voting masses see themselves, even if they aren't, as middle class aspiring social climbers. Old Labour can't represent them.
That's exactly what I've been saying, but the right biased moderate party cannot call it self Labour or include that name. Blair pulled that trick once but it wont work again.
However I don't see any moderate one winning in any foreseeable future, new moderate parties fare very badly in this country. Don't forget it happened before to Labour.
Four leading moderates, Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Bill Rodgers, and Shirley Williams left the party as a protest against the left wing and with others joining them they formed the moderate middle of the road Social Democrat Party (SDP).
It failed to make any real impression, merged with the Liberals to form the SDLP, later changing their name to the Liberal Democrats.
You know the saying, doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is the definition of madness.
It didn't work last time and won't do if attempted again.
There are other precedents. Arthur Scargill tried to form a true left wing party which would have helped divide the Labour party into two, but that failed. The Liberals once had two versions, the Liberal party and the National Liberal party, but the latter failed and the two merged.
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