Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Maximum watts for UK household + fast charging

Hi, Since each plug socket has a maximum of 3kW, and most UK households have around 2 sockets per room (as in, two outlets, each with two stockets). Can someone tell me: 1. What the typical maximum wattage, in total, a UK house hold can take? (on average) 2. If the limit is somewhere near...

www.speakev.com

It's not quite as simple as folk think to get home charging for ecars.
Yep,indivudually house can supply 7kw no problem... But at network level averages have been taken, and it averages out at 2kw each household. (in general) So, whilst few of us charge cars continually through the night. (Kia mentioned yesterday would require 9 hours from empty at 7kw)
The system is not in place to provide lots of 7kw supplies all night. At moment perhaps 1 or 2 per street.

Oh dear. Once again please do some thinking before posting. Yes it can take 8 or 9 hours for a full charge on the typical 6.6 kW point, but most people don't cover anything like 100 to 200 miles every day to completely empty their battery. That 200 miles is well over the national average mileage per week and 73,000 miles a year!!

So at one seventh of your assumption at the very most, there's plenty of night capacity to charge up to half of all our cars as e-cars with present mileages.
,

 

[Danidl]

Right now, taking into account sensible purchase cost to vehicle range, two car owners could swap one ICE vehicle for an electric. That’s about my situation. 85% + of my journeys would work with an electric car. My beaten up old Subaru Forester, which owes me nothing would take care of the rest.

Home charging would be easy for me, but don’t know how people living in houses or flats with street parking would get along.

Yep.. like I say the only problem, for many of us would be the double standing charges for road tax and insurance. Tidy that up , by say using the same insurance for multiple vehicles and it's a runner. What the last year has shown is that ice cars can be left standing with little usage, and they just last longer.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Oh dear. Once again please do some thinking before posting. Yes it can take 8 or 9 hours for a full charge on the typical 6.6 kW point, but most people don't cover anything like 100 to 200 miles every day to completely empty their battery. That 200 miles is well over the national average mileage per week and 73,000 miles a year!!

So at one seventh of your assumption at the very most, there's plenty of night capacity to charge up to half of all our cars as e-cars with present mileages.
,

But for street charging, wouldn’t that involve getting up in middle of the night to vacate a charging point so that someone else can get up in middle of the night to plug their car in?

I don’t think generating capacity is the problem. It’s the large number of people who can’t accommodate a charging point on their premises.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Yep.. like I say the only problem, for many of us would be the double standing charges for road tax and insurance.

I thought EVs were zero rated for road tax? Multi-car insurance policy? Don’t think you’d notice much difference. I’d save money on those two fronts.

 

[wheeler]

The system is not in place to provide lots of 7kw supplies all night. At moment perhaps 1 or 2 per street.

That'll be a blow to people with night storage heating.

 

[Danidl]

I thought EVs were zero rated for road tax? Multi-car insurance policy? Don’t think you’d notice much difference. I’d save money on those two fronts.

There are other countries in the world than the UK, with different legislation. In Ireland the EV road tax is 120 euro pa whereas it is 280 for my diesel.. But it is the insurance which would hurt. That would typically be another 600.

 

[Danidl]

But for street charging, wouldn’t that involve getting up in middle of the night to vacate a charging point so that someone else can get up in middle of the night to plug their car in?

I don’t think generating capacity is the problem. It’s the large number of people who can’t accommodate a charging point on their premises.

Look at fleccs timings. The on street user will have the car plugged in all night. But the reality is lots of people have garages or driveways. The none grant cost of installation is under 1grand for a nice shiny new socket. Now that is less than a garage door or a glass porch and is a once off. Soon it will be in the same luxury bracket as ...do you have cable TV.
Now the power requirement domestically is overstated. It is about the same as a power electric shower .the only difference being it is running for a number of hours . ...but at a time when the vast majority of items in the home are off

 

[Zlatan]

Look at fleccs timings. The on street user will have the car plugged in all night. But the reality is lots of people have garages or driveways. The none grant cost of installation is under 1grand for a nice shiny new socket. Now that is less than a garage door or a glass porch and is a once off. Soon it will be in the same luxury bracket as ...do you have cable TV.
Now the power requirement domestically is overstated. It is about the same as a power electric shower .the only difference being it is running for a number of hours . ...but at a time when the vast majority of items in the home are off

And who says home charging is going to remain cheap.. Once they have reached high enough number for a monopoly on transport I guarantee prices of electricity will hike..
It will rise to a comparative cost with driving petrol cars now... Tax on petrol/diesel puts millions in kitty... You think our government will not want to replace the lost revenue.. No chance... Its simple numbers keeping cost down at moment..
Repeat again flecc the network is not currently capable of delivering much more than it is at moment. Speak to an electrician. The link I provided explains.. Single phase supply to house holds can supply upto 100 amps (some 80) total but outlets only upto 7kw...so yes in theory each household can take 7kw,, but not many of us simultaneously for extended periods.
And again you pick me up even tho I said from empty for the kia... Of course there will be residual charge but the system must be able to cope with worst case scenario.
And I am not arguing grid can't cope at all, I, m saying it needs massive investment to cope. Its reckoned by 2030 it should be able to cope with increased demand but if we do go down route of home charging for majority there will have to be changes at sub station level.
I don't think people quite understand the amounts of power we are talking about.
Part of the grids coping strategy is to have 6000 high speed charge points along UK roadsides by 2035...and upgrade cabling throughout system by 2030. We really think these infrastructure goals will be achieved??? Let's hope so. I, m not convinced... HS2???

 

[Woosh]

And who says home charging is going to remain cheap.. Once they have reached high enough number for a monopoly on transport I guarantee prices of electricity will hike..

agreed.

Repeat again flecc the network is not currently capable of delivering much more than it is at moment. Speak to an electrician.

that can be mitigated by local energy storage at charging stations, buy off peak, sell on higher price.

 

[Danidl]

And who says home charging is going to remain cheap.. Once they have reached high enough number for a monopoly on transport I guarantee prices of electricity will hike..
It will rise to a comparative cost with driving petrol cars now... Tax on petrol/diesel puts millions in kitty... You think our government will not want to replace the lost revenue.. No chance... Its simple numbers keeping cost down at moment..
Repeat again flecc the network is not currently capable of delivering much more than it is at moment. Speak to an electrician. The link I provided explains.. Single phase supply to house holds can supply upto 100 amps (some 80) total but outlets only upto 7kw...so yes in theory each household can take 7kw,, but not many of us simultaneously for extended periods.
And again you pick me up even tho I said from empty for the kia... Of course there will be residual charge but the system must be able to cope with worst case scenario.
And I am not arguing grid can't cope at all, I, m saying it needs massive investment to cope. Its reckoned by 2030 it should be able to cope with increased demand but if we do go down route of home charging for majority there will have to be changes at sub station level.
I don't think people quite understand the amounts of power we are talking about.

Well taxation was not on the agenda... But of course you are co rrect. It is typical for a State to offer tax concessions at the start of a new technology bin order to" prime the pump ",and because economies of scale have not swung into action.
You might need to consult a more erudite electrican. The main fuse entry point can easily handle the 80amp @230 in the UK or in our case in Ireland it is 65amp at 220vrms , or 15KW. The spur would be taken off at that junction to feed the 7kw auxiary feed . The point about house wiring at the utility entry point is that it can supply the maximum rated current indefinitely. The aforementioned power shower also needs its dedicated power feed and separate fusing because the local fuse box or circuit breaker is not designed for those loads. .Indeed it is the local electrian wiring these up from the fuse box who causes problems.
Going back a generation, it was not unusual to come across a house with three or four rooms all heated with 2 bar electric fires ... An accumulation of 8 or 9 Kw.

 

[Zlatan]

Well taxation was not on the agenda... But of course you are co rrect. It is typical for a State to offer tax concessions at the start of a new technology bin order to" prime the pump ",and because economies of scale have not swung into action.
You might need to consult a more erudite electrican. The main fuse entry point can easily handle the 80amp @230 in the UK or in our case in Ireland it is 65amp at 220vrms , or 15KW. The spur would be taken off at that junction to feed the 7kw auxiary feed . The point about house wiring at the utility entry point is that it can supply the maximum rated current indefinitely. The aforementioned power shower also needs its dedicated power feed and separate fusing because the local fuse box or circuit breaker is not designed for those loads. .Indeed it is the local electrian wiring these up from the fuse box who causes problems.

Perhaps you should read my post..
I never mentioned home not being able to cope, ofcourse it has capability to do so, if you are content with a 7kw (continuous) supply... The problem arises, as both I explained, and in link, when numerous houses draw high levels of charge. The average consumer in UK draws 2kw(at the moment) ...so substations are designed around a fairly low average. (varies regionally) It's exactly why board are saying grid will cope by 2030.There are plans to upgrade cabling to cope with envisaged higher averages and a hope that most users will use intelligent /timed charging rather than plugging in when arriving home.
There needs to be changes. Without them our grid can not cope.
Like you say, you have an 11kw shower... You really think system could cope as is with you and many others showering after work, plugging their cars in and heating house with electricity. (gas boilers will be banned)
Think you are dreaming Danidl. The system was never designed for all these changes, no matter what they say.
How much redundancy would have been designed into grid when it was being developed.
9 and 11 kW showers, 7kw charging and house heating are all recent.. That probably represents a 2 or 3 fold (or more) increase in average cinsumtion. No way was system originally designed for all that. Like I told you earlier they are aiming for 2030 for grid to be able to cope.With how much increase? Who knows. Time will tell.
Seems to me time to get in is now. Before there are limits on number allowed home charging and before government start charging all the ecar users to pay for all the infrastructure improvements needed.
Shell, BP and Texaco paid for most petrol stations to be built. At moment tax payers are paying for the planned infrastructure.??? Why should I pay for a charging post built by council or government.
To put it simply domestic home supply capability has lots of redundancy built into it for consumers safety. That redundancy is not replicated throughout system and leads people to think system is way more capable than it actually is.There are weak links which need sorting...
Speak with someone who has worked in the industry.

 

[flecc]

Zlatan, I knkw you hate being wrong and have said so, but on all of this you are wrong but too stubborn to admit it.

And who says home charging is going to remain cheap.. Once they have reached high enough number for a monopoly on transport I guarantee prices of electricity will hike..
It will rise to a comparative cost with driving petrol cars now...

We already know electricity prices are going to rise to pay for nuclear etc, but they won't rise to anything like petrol levels for e-cars because they cannot., That's because the half of the public who can charge at home will simply charge from their 13 amp sockets if home charger electricity is separated to a higher price. And that home electricity cannt rise to petrol equivalance since people cannot afford that level of cost. I already do every second charge from 13 amps to give the battery an easy time, it only takes ten hours overnight to replenish it from half full to full. And that's no strain on the grid.

Repeat again flecc the network is not currently capable of delivering much more than it is at moment. Speak to an electrician. The link I provided explains.. Single phase supply to house holds can supply upto 100 amps (some 80) total but outlets only upto 7kw...so yes in theory each household can take 7kw,, but not many of us simultaneously for extended periods.

No, no, no Zlatan, stop being cussed, read and learn from what I've posted. Only one tenth of the cars will be plugged in on any one night on present annual mileages. That 10% can easily take 7 kW continuously at night from their house 22 kW supply, after all they are asleep with just their fridge running occasionally and little else. That 7 kW from one in ten houses is only equivalent to 0.7 kW from each of them of them, far within what the grid can supply at any time, especially at night

if we do go down route of home charging for majority there will have to be changes at sub station level.

No, for the above given reason.

Zlatan, I have always had the greatest respect for your undoubted knowledge of the ICE cars, their market and infrastructure. But by sticking cussedly to so much that is easily seen to be wrong on th e-car subject you are doing yourself no favours.
.

 

[flecc]

Like I told you earlier they are aiming for 2030 for grid to be able to cope.With how much increase? Who knows. Time will tell.

There will indeed be grid increases, but primarily for home heating with gas being abandoned. No grid change is necessary for 700 watts per household average during the night. There's that and more to spare then. 9 to 11 kW showers, so what? Does the whole population shower between midnight and 4 am? Of course not, almost none do.

Seems to me time to get in is now. Before there are limits on number allowed home charging and before government start charging all the ecar users to pay for all the infrastructure improvements needed.
Shell, BP and Texaco paid for most petrol stations to be built. At moment tax payers are paying for the planned infrastructure.??? Why should I pay for a charging post built by council or government.

Again you show your lack of knowledge on this subject. Taxpayers aren't paying for most of it, we e-car users are and will continue to. That's in two ways, firstly the very high cost of public charging is because the companies providing it have to pay the network providers to provide the infrastructure. Secondly because private individuals have to pay if an infrastructure change is needed. Most don't have to since any house or flat is good for the occasional night time charge since its well within the present house and network ability as I've shown you.

But those like me who cannot charge from their home have to pay for it to be laid on elsewhere. In my case the quote from UK Power Networks for a supply to my garage was £4250. But that's only the supply, I still have to provide the meter box, consumer unit and the electrician to install it and supply a safety certificate for the supplier to install a meter which I also have to pay for. So £5k in all. Fortunately the fast charger is free at present but often paid for by the car maker as mine was and not by the taxpayer.

As it happens I found a workaround that enabled my supply for well under £3k in all.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Good point. Do you think it’s time the U.K. made a pre-emptive nuclear strike against France? A few buckets of sunshine scattered around the place should calm things down.

Ah! that's the good old pacify the natives method from colonial India Times, just shoot a few! bound to go down well on the front page of Der Sturmer

 

[flecc]

Yep.. like I say the only problem, for many of us would be the double standing charges for road tax and insurance. Tidy that up , by say using the same insurance for multiple vehicles and it's a runner.

We have lots of two car households, but very often they are couples who each run their own car. So the costs and bureaucratic effort are not a problem for each, especially since they can have cheaper multi-car household insurance and even cheaper if one is an e-car with no VED (road tax).
.

 

[Danidl]

Perhaps you should read my post..
I never mentioned home not being able to cope, ofcourse it has capability to do so, if you are content with a 7kw (continuous) supply... The problem arises, as both I explained, and in link, when numerous houses draw high levels of charge. The average consumer in UK draws 2kw(at the moment) ...so substations are designed around a fairly low average. (varies regionally) It's exactly why board are saying grid will cope by 2030.There are plans to upgrade cabling to cope with envisaged higher averages and a hope that most users will use intelligent /timed charging rather than plugging in when arriving home.
There needs to be changes. Without them our grid can not cope.
Like you say, you have an 11kw shower... You really think system could cope as is with you and many others showering after work, plugging their cars in and heating house with electricity. (gas boilers will be banned)
Think you are dreaming Danidl. The system was never designed for all these changes, no matter what they say.
How much redundancy would have been designed into grid when it was being developed.
9 and 11 kW showers, 7kw charging and house heating are all recent.. That probably represents a 2 or 3 fold (or more) increase in average cinsumtion. No way was system originally designed for all that. Like I told you earlier they are aiming for 2030 for grid to be able to cope.With how much increase? Who knows. Time will tell.
Seems to me time to get in is now. Before there are limits on number allowed home charging and before government start charging all the ecar users to pay for all the infrastructure improvements needed.
Shell, BP and Texaco paid for most petrol stations to be built. At moment tax payers are paying for the planned infrastructure.??? Why should I pay for a charging post built by council or government.
To put it simply domestic home supply capability has lots of redundancy built into it for consumers safety. That redundancy is not replicated throughout system and leads people to think system is way more capable than it actually is.There are weak links which need sorting...
Speak with someone who has worked in the industry.

I have a professional familiarity with this topic... . And I have great faith in the resilience of my fellow engineering professionals. Lets see now who was it who claimed that Wind couldn't cope with 5% ,10% 20%, 40% of Grid demand, without creating instabilities?. Who claimed that an entire fossil fuel infrastructure of 100% capacity had to coexist with renewables, ? And yes I have been at the high level conferences where such claims were made.. now discredited ...
What actually happens is that we introduce newer methods ,and different doctrines , so for instance, localised energy storage, solar panels, demand side tariffs , LED lights, insulation ,and wide area power grids. ..And of course more and more Wind Energy at these latitudes.
Why should you pay for a council built charging post?. It might reduce your emphysema.

 

[Zlatan]

Zlatan, I knkw you hate being wrong and have said so, but on all of this you are wrong but too stubborn to admit it.



We already know electricity prices are going to rise to pay for nuclear etc, but they won't rise to anything like petrol levels for e-cars because they cannot., That's because the half of the public who can charge at home will simply charge from their 13 amp sockets if home charger electricity is separated to a higher price. And that home electricity cannt rise to petrol equivalance since people cannot afford that level of cost. I already do every second charge from 13 amps to give the battery an easy time, it only takes ten hours overnight to replenish it from half full to full. And that's no strain on the grid.



No, no, no Zlatan, stop being cussed, read and learn from what I've posted. Only one tenth of the cars will be plugged in on any one night on present annual mileages. That 10% can easily take 7 kW continuously at night from their house 22 kW supply, after all they are asleep with just their fridge running occasionally and little else. That 7 kW from one in ten houses is only equivalent to 0.7 kW from each of them of them, far within what the grid can supply at any time, especially at night



No, for the above given reason.

Zlatan, I have always had the greatest respect for your undoubted knowledge of the ICE cars, their market and infrastructure. But by sticking cussedly to so much that is easily seen to be wrong on th e-car subject you are doing yourself no favours.
.

Fair points flecc. I am playing devil's advocate a bit...
The system will need to adapt and upgrade in certain areas but all totally feasible..
Take care..
And, I went out in the Kia about a month ago... It was great... Yep, I, d have one..

 

[Zlatan]

I have a professional familiarity with this topic... . And I have great faith in the resilience of my fellow engineering professionals. Lets see now who was it who claimed that Wind couldn't cope with 5% ,10% 20%, 40% of Grid demand, without creating instabilities?. Who claimed that an entire fossil fuel infrastructure of 100% capacity had to coexist with renewables, ? And yes I have been at the high level conferences where such claims were made.. now discredited ...
What actually happens is that we introduce newer methods ,and different doctrines , so for instance, localised energy storage, solar panels, demand side tariffs , LED lights, insulation ,and wide area power grids. ..And of course more and more Wind Energy at these latitudes.
Why should you pay for a council built charging post?. It might reduce your emphysema.

I don't have it. Get plenty of other stuff mind.

 

[Danidl]

We have lots of two car households, but very often they are couples who each run their own car. So the costs and bureaucratic effort are not a problem for each, especially since they can have cheaper multi-car household insurance and even cheaper if one is an e-car with no VED (road tax).
.

The UK is not the only country in the world... Yes we have two diesel cars and we do get discounts on each others insurance, but a new Kia would be at the 40K euro level and its comprehensive insurance would be high. When we do get another car, it will be an EV. We do have expensive tax on motor vehicle ..a VRT extra price, since we have no motor manufacturing industry to subsidise. Our road tax for a EV is 120 euro.

 

[flecc]

The UK is not the only country in the world...

Of course, but the variations in the treatment of e-cars are so great we each need to say what our circumstances are for any understanding.
.