Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Nearly-new electric cars cost more to run than petrol and diesel

Electric cars bought one or two years after manufacture are costlier to run than petrol or diesel equivalents, according to Auto Trader, the largest new and used car marketplace in the UK.

www.driving.co.uk

Auto trader are calling for much more investment in charging infrastructure. There won't be, we will wait until ques form putting folk off, and stifle the market further.
I, m not optimistic at all about our readiness for Ice ban. As I said earlier, we will see massive problems.

That's SEAT's version of the VW e-UP, claimed 150 plus in Summer which they can easily do with their new larger battery 35 kW/h battery, but down to about 110 lowest in the coldest weather.

Which is fine since it's a little town car not meant for long journeys., though it can manage the odd ones. For people who want to do long journeys there's VW's large Golf size ID3 with the 340 mile battery. In due course there will be SEAT and Skoda versions of that too.
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In real world tests the best performing under £35k was Hyundai and Kia E Nero (share batteries /motor/drive train) which both managed 253 miles. (with manufacturers claiming 300 plus)
The I pace Jag can do around 250 miles in real tests but is expensive.
The only car capable at moment of filling roll I, d put it through at anything like reasonable price would in fact be the Kia (64 kW /201 bhp version) E Nero.
What cars achieve and what manufacturers claim are two different things. And, I suspect the Kia at 253 miles was under good conditions.. (ie temp around 10 degrees) Mileage will drop substantially in very cold (using heating) or very hot (using air con) conditions... Plus of course taking battery out of its comfort zone..
But to be fair 250 miles for a decent sized SUV at around £36k new price is better than I, d thought... I can't see even town cars selling that well with potential of sub 100 miles range.
Yes, people can manage with cars having an 80 mile range but folk don't think like that. They think I might go to "wherever" or what if situation changes. I suspect we, ll be seeing Ice cars holding value and ecars depreciating much faster than they should, which has knock on problems for market take up.

 

[oldgroaner]

When we rejoin? Give us a year OG. Don't think us 2 will be around to celebrate. I won't..

You have a point there
Just to remind you that even your Fuhrer doesn't believe in Brexit working

 

[Danidl]

Nearly-new electric cars cost more to run than petrol and diesel

Electric cars bought one or two years after manufacture are costlier to run than petrol or diesel equivalents, according to Auto Trader, the largest new and used car marketplace in the UK.

www.driving.co.uk

In real world tests the best performing under £35k was Hyundai and Kia E Nero (share batteries /motor/drive train) which both managed 253 miles. (with manufacturers claiming 300 plus)
The I pace Jag can do around 250 miles in real tests but is expensive.
The only car capable at moment of filling roll I, d put it through at anything like reasonable price would in fact be the Kia (64 kW /201 bhp version)..
What cars achieve and what manufacturers claim are two different things. And, I suspect the Kia at 253 miles was under good conditions.. (ie temp around 10 degrees) Mileage will drop substantially in very cold (using heating) or very hot (using air con) conditions... Plus of course taking battery out of its comfort zone..
But to be fair 250 miles for a decent sized SUV at around £36k new price is better than I, d thought... I can't see even town cars selling that well with potential of sub 100 miles range.

I think you are looking at this the wrong end on. You would have e noticed in France, and Spain those rural San Permis cars . They totter along the 30 Kms from the local village to the local big town , bringing the pensioner in to their medical appointment or weekly shop. The little seat fills that role, admirably ... and with far less bother . Now the Yummy mummy school run is about the same and a runabout is just fine for that. the suburban delivery services , like post, and the health care nurse, are easily catered for in the range. So the 120 miles is ample for daily se. The long range Mr Mondeo in a fuel guzzing petrol commercial traveller car , or the weekend caravaner will need the range and power of the IC engine.
The only problem in say a family like mine in having both is anomalies in the road tax and insurance . Sort that one out and we are good to go.

 

[flecc]

It's the goals which are lacking in reality. It can't happen. Ecars just aren't good enough yet. Manufacturers will change when they realise sales are being hit. I know loads more people who couldn't go electric than those who could... Or want to..
I know only too well the way governments are steering manufacturers with legislation. Unfortunately IMHO they are banning the technology before a real alternative for it exists. The next 15 years or so are going to be madness. The infrastructure feeding our cars has taken decades to develop. The one feeding ecars has hardly started and the cars will not be fit for purpose... So people will not buy them.

You are so totally wrong and also very badly informed on the current situation regarding both e-cars and charging.
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[flecc]

Auto trader are calling for much more investment in charging infrastructure. There won't be, we will wait until ques form putting folk off, and stifle the market further.
I, m not optimistic at all about our readiness for Ice ban. As I said earlier, we will see massive problems.

So not true, there already is, £1 billion from BP Pulse alone. Clearly even Auto Trader aren't keeping up with events, or perhaps have a vested interest in putting the boot in to e-cars. The scale of rapid charging expansion is already beyond what will be needed over the next three years as e-car sales only steadily expand due to not enough of them for a while yet.

What cars achieve and what manufacturers claim are two different things. And, I suspect the Kia at 253 miles was under good conditions.. (ie temp around 10 degrees) Mileage will drop substantially in very cold (using heating) or very hot (using air con) conditions... Plus of course taking battery out of its comfort zone..

Don't try teaching granny to suck eggs, I've long known far more than you on this subject as your posts make abundantly clear. That's why I've been quoting net ranges, not maker claims. If e-cars are so hopeless in severe cold, why is Norway, proportionally the world's largest market for them, coping without any problems on the arctic circle?

I can't see even town cars selling that well with potential of sub 100 miles range.

Your invention again, there aren't now any potentially sub 100 mile e-cars, other than micro town runabouts. Honda's expressly town only design car has the shortest range now. These town cars like the VW Up and the new Honda are mostly sold as second cars for town use, so range is of no importance. I don't know what it's like where you live, but multi car households are commonplace in the south. I know of three around here with an original Leaf as a second and in one case third car, range 70 miles in summer, as low as 50 in winter, but neither their supermarkets or schools are that far away!

I suspect we, ll be seeing Ice cars holding value and ecars depreciating much faster than they should, which has knock on problems for market take up.

The opposite of what has happened, once again showing how out of touch you are and have been with this market. E-car used prices were years ago very low with appalling depreciation, but that's no longer true. The sheer shortage of cars alone has boosted the value of used ones to sometimes excessive levels. And new ones have been selling at way over list. Back in 2018 even the new Leaf then was selling from some dealers at up to £2500 premium over list price, due to a one year waiting list.
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[jonathan.agnew]

Nearly-new electric cars cost more to run than petrol and diesel

Electric cars bought one or two years after manufacture are costlier to run than petrol or diesel equivalents, according to Auto Trader, the largest new and used car marketplace in the UK.

www.driving.co.uk

Auto trader are calling for much more investment in charging infrastructure. There won't be, we will wait until ques form putting folk off, and stifle the market further.
I, m not optimistic at all about our readiness for Ice ban. As I said earlier, we will see massive problems.

In real world tests the best performing under £35k was Hyundai and Kia E Nero (share batteries /motor/drive train) which both managed 253 miles. (with manufacturers claiming 300 plus)
The I pace Jag can do around 250 miles in real tests but is expensive.
The only car capable at moment of filling roll I, d put it through at anything like reasonable price would in fact be the Kia (64 kW /201 bhp version) E Nero.
What cars achieve and what manufacturers claim are two different things. And, I suspect the Kia at 253 miles was under good conditions.. (ie temp around 10 degrees) Mileage will drop substantially in very cold (using heating) or very hot (using air con) conditions... Plus of course taking battery out of its comfort zone..
But to be fair 250 miles for a decent sized SUV at around £36k new price is better than I, d thought... I can't see even town cars selling that well with potential of sub 100 miles range.
Yes, people can manage with cars having an 80 mile range but folk don't think like that. They think I might go to "wherever" or what if situation changes. I suspect we, ll be seeing Ice cars holding value and ecars depreciating much faster than they should, which has knock on problems for market take up.

The hong guang mini ev sells in china for £3400 and has an official range of 100 miles (and top speed of 62mph). You may say its inadequate (I like minimalist stuff and would buy one) but its very cheap - i think the high ev prices in the west have as much to do with protectionism as real cost.

 

[flecc]

i think the high ev prices in the west have as much to do with protectionism as real cost.

It's more to do with the market demand being so far in excess of supply at present, meaning they can concentrate on the high end premium price market. Why sell cheaply when there's a long waiting list for one?
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[Zlatan]

So not true, there already is, £1 billion from BP Pulse alone. Clearly even Auto Trader aren't keeping up with events, or perhaps have a vested interest in putting the boot in to e-cars. The scale of rapid charging expansion is already beyond what will be needed over the next three years as e-car sales only steadily expand due to not enough of them for a while yet.



Don't try teaching granny to suck eggs, I've long known far more than you on this subject as your posts make abundantly clear. That's why I've been quoting net ranges, not maker claims. If e-cars are so hopeless in severe cold, why is Norway, proportionally the world's largest market for them, coping without any problems on the arctic circle?



Your invention again, there aren't now any potentially sub 100 mile e-cars, other than micro town runabouts. Honda's expressly town only design car has the shortest range now. These town cars like the VW Up and the new Honda are mostly sold as second cars for town use, so range is of no importance. I don't know what it's like where you live, but multi car households are commonplace in the south. I know of three around here with an original Leaf as a second and in one case third car, range 70 miles in summer, as low as 50 in winter, but neither their supermarkets or schools are that far away!



The opposite of what has happened, once again showing how out of touch you are and have been with this market. E-car used prices were years ago very low with appalling depreciation, but that's no longer true. The sheer shortage of cars alone has boosted the value of used ones to sometimes excessive levels. And new ones have been selling at way over list. Back in 2018 even the new Leaf then was selling from some dealers at up to £2500 premium over list price, due to a one year waiting list.
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I didn't say they were hopeless I said the range is adversely affected by extremes of temperature, which they obviously are.
You can't be much of an expert if you didn't know that can you.
If you study the link provided there is only one car of reasonable size (5 seats, decent luggage space) available under £40K which was found in real world tests to achieve over 250 miles and that was the one mentioned. (Kia E Niro 201 bhp). The manufacturer claims far more, but repeating what I said earlier a real world range of 250 miles is decent and acceptable.
If you take trouble to study cheaper, smaller cars there are many with under 150 miles real world ranges and some with under 100,especially so in colder conditions.
The only point I was making is those "Town cars" much as they fit the bill for pure town they will never be as desirable as Ice alternatives because they don't have flexibility to easily perform longer journeys. Even if not envisaged people like to think they could drive 150 miles to see grandma if needed. The cheapest Ice car made will always manage 250 miles if asked. That inability will stop many buying ecars even if they would be fine 95% of time.
There are no cheap ecars available capable of carrying a family of 5 and have a 250 real world range. I don't think the Kia E Niro is particularly cheap.. (£38 k)
As for saying you know more than Auto Trader.. Rubbish . You do not. They have no motives for pushing one or another type of vehicle. They were merely commenting on the market as they see it and its likely development.
There are inherent problems with ecars. Ignoring the issues will merely exaggerate their affects.
At the moment there are 102 active charging stations in Rotherham. (Including Meadowhall). There needs to be massive spending and soon on infrastructure or people's initial experiences of ecars will be like my garage owner friend. He, s in a position to run 2 or 3 cars. I wonder how he, d be feeling if like most he could not afford a second vehicle for holidays, long journeys, trips abroad and weekend trips? And that's in a Tesla with a manufacturers claimed range of hundreds of miles. A figure he has never achieved. His best, 268 steady miles. And he paid £75k for the damned thing.
And the UK national grid could not cope as it is. It is believed by 2030 it will have sufficient generating capability for the likely increase of us to be driving ecars. But perhaps they are wrong too.

 

[flecc]

And the UK national grid could not cope as it is. It is believed by 2030 it will have sufficient generating capability for 40% of us to be driving ecars. But perhaps they are wrong too.

Yes that is wrong, we could cope with at least 30% of all cars charging overnight right now, so 40% by 2030 will be no problem. Remember most of the demand is during the night when there's a huge surplus of available current. ICE cars do most of their filling up by day during driving. E-cars and e-vans do almost all theirs overnight, if only because it costs a fraction of the daytime prices of public chargers.

2030 isn't that far away and with 30 to 35% of e-cars by then you'll see then how wrong you've been about e-vehicle charging. However I do think we could have a daytime electricity supply problem by then, thanks to the government's neglect to provide enough generating capacity. But that is when all the e-cars will come to the rescue to some extent, as they already do in Denmark.

I'm afraid all your thinking on this subject is stuck in the recent ICE past. That is not, will not be and cannot be our future, either voluntarily or by enforcement. I don't pretend the petrol heads will like it, but it is going to happen.
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[Zlatan]

I, ve given you an agree, half of your post I agree with and I, m laughing listening to Peston.. Labour... What a joke. Peston saying what I, ve been saying for months. Folk don't care about wall paper and Boris' outbursts.

Seems Tories are riding good feeling from our vaccine roll out.

 

[oldgroaner]

Back by popular demand................Gunboat Diplomacy

What if the French send theirs too?
Better book a time slot off Cape Trafalgar for a re-run

 

[Nev]

What if the French send theirs too?

They don't need to, if they close their channel ports to us we are in big trouble. Food rationing would occur in next to no time, but we all just need to remember two things that the Brexitiers promised us.
1. This is going to be the easiest trade deal in history.
2. We now have blue passports.

Changing the subject just slightly, I heard on the radio this morning that US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken said that it will be some time before they are ready to do a trade deal with us. Not to worry though we have got brexit done and we are now global Britain so we can all sleep better at night.

 

[Zlatan]

Report suggests the ship's 30mm bushmaster cannon is likely to be deployed? I, m not sure author quite understands meaning of word deployed.. Otherwise we are in for an interesting week..
Think he meant they have one on board.. Good old media. Can always be relied upon to pour oil on troubled waters and report facts.
Not sure what UK authorities are supposed to do. Islands are now foreign ports to French and as such operators require licenses??? French are revolting... Again. Doesn't take much does it?
I wonder what French would be saying if our boats rolled up in cinque ports, moored up and expected no license fees or operating costs?

 

[Jesus H Christ]

That's SEAT's version of the VW e-UP, claimed 150 plus in Summer which they can easily do with their new larger battery 35 kW/h battery, but down to about 110 lowest in the coldest weather.

Which is fine since it's a little town car not meant for long journeys., though it can manage the odd ones. For people who want to do long journeys there's VW's large Golf size ID3 with the 340 mile battery. In due course there will be SEAT and Skoda versions of that too.
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Right now, taking into account sensible purchase cost to vehicle range, two car owners could swap one ICE vehicle for an electric. That’s about my situation. 85% + of my journeys would work with an electric car. My beaten up old Subaru Forester, which owes me nothing would take care of the rest.

Home charging would be easy for me, but don’t know how people living in houses or flats with street parking would get along.

 

[Zlatan]

Right now, taking into account sensible purchase cost to vehicle range, two car owners could swap one ICE vehicle for an electric. That’s about my situation. 85% + of my journeys would work with an electric car. My beaten up old Subaru Forester, which owes me nothing would take care of the rest.

Home charging would be easy for me, but don’t know how people living in houses or flats with street parking would get along.

Was listening to some big wig from electricity generating board other day. He reckoned folk don't expect a filling station infront of house... His feeling was sufficient public charging posts for most was way to go... Mentioned charging posts on lamp posts... But that would require massive infrastructure development.???

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Back by popular demand................Gunboat Diplomacy

What if the French send theirs too?
Better book a time slot off Cape Trafalgar for a re-run

Good point. Do you think it’s time the U.K. made a pre-emptive nuclear strike against France? A few buckets of sunshine scattered around the place should calm things down.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Was listening to some big wig from electricity generating board other day. He reckoned folk don't expect a filling station infront of house... His feeling was sufficient public charging posts for most was way to go... Mentioned charging posts on lamp posts... But that would require massive infrastructure development.???

If every lamp post had a charging point, there still wouldn’t be enough. People would be stabbing or bludgeoning each other to death in squabbles over access. People have laid down their lives to secure a supermarket parking space in the past, street charging is going to be like the bloodiest day on the Somme during WW1.

If you want a bit of fun, park in a “mother & child only” space at a supermarket, but don’t have a child in the car. Go alone, or take your dog. It will give you a watered down taster of what street charging is going to be like.

 

[Zlatan]

Maximum watts for UK household + fast charging

Hi, Since each plug socket has a maximum of 3kW, and most UK households have around 2 sockets per room (as in, two outlets, each with two stockets). Can someone tell me: 1. What the typical maximum wattage, in total, a UK house hold can take? (on average) 2. If the limit is somewhere near...

www.speakev.com

It's not quite as simple as folk think to get home charging for ecars.
Yep,indivudually house can supply 7kw no problem... But at network level averages have been taken, and it averages out at 2kw each household. (in general) So, whilst few of us charge cars continually through the night. (Kia mentioned yesterday would require 9 hours from empty at 7kw)
The system is not in place to provide lots of 7kw supplies all night. At moment perhaps 1 or 2 per street.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Strava is down this morning! It’s the French, the war has begun. Attack, attack attack!111

 

[flecc]

Home charging would be easy for me, but don’t know how people living in houses or flats with street parking would get along.

Was listening to some big wig from electricity generating board other day. He reckoned folk don't expect a filling station infront of house... His feeling was sufficient public charging posts for most was way to go... Mentioned charging posts on lamp posts... But that would require massive infrastructure development.???

The RAC survey fo the government found that 50% of all households nationally can have a home fast charge point. That's more than enough for a very long time since it will take ages to replace half of our over 30 million cars. In London only a quarter of all properties can have a home charge point, but that doesn't matter so much. Firstly because London's car ownership is the lowest in the country thanks to good and very cheap public transport. Secondly because we already have a rapidly expanding street charging scene, many of them free to charge.

Charging points on lamp posts are no bother, one German company has already installed over 1000 on our London lamp posts. There's now even a retracting charge point design which can be called up from flush to the pavement by a smartphone!

That generating big wig is talking nonsense, typical of so many who know nothing of the subject and guess. His claim of public charge points as the way to go for most will be totally unacceptable with the electricity costing three times as much as home charging. When a free home charge point is possible, that is what people will have, and as said, that's more than enough for many years to come.
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