Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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Their experts tho flec(EMA) are giving AZ vaccine a clean bill of health.
Yes, AZ did make initial errors in dosage and trial participant selection but that has nothing to do with this.
I, d totally agree with you if EMA had advised caution. They have not, never did over this issue. They have said all along delay is much worse than risk of clot problems.
We get accused of jingoism for suggesting EU ministers and governments of countries suspending roll out are not listening to the science. There simply is no medical justification for this delay. Why are you now supporting a blatant political decision when criticising our government for, allegedly, doing same. There is no consistency to your stance. Had Johnson done this I, d be criticising him for not listening to SAGE/Mhra. EU ministers are obviously advising Governments of countries to suspend vaccine, but can(as normal) pass blame to individual countries.(why else would all countries suspending roll out be within EU)
Its all utterly ridiculous. EU supporters are in this case defending the indefensible. Their actions are killing people. Look at figures for France and Italy and listen to what their doctors are saying.
Its unbelievable and more so rational people here defending it.
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Not so, I said leaders and their national experts, that's not the EMA experts.
Once again you mix the two, it's only the individual nations who are temporarily halting the AZ.
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That doesn’t answer the question. The WHO and the EU’s own EMA are shouting “Get on with it” So why stop? Why blame blood clotting when cases of clotting are well below the number which occur naturally?
Their own Health officials are saying same as EMA. Its only political ministers arguing for killing more people. (posted link yesterday about Italian Health officials wanting to ignore govt)
That's exactly what I was going to say. Beat me to it.
Why tho, when EMA and their own health officials are against it.
Does beg question, yet again, what is point of EMA. Utterly pointless, a totally redundant level of bureaucracy. They exist to exist. Powerless and will blame individual countries for being ignored.
Explain their function flecc?
yes, there is. You just don't want to see it.
If this is proven, it won't be just the AZ vaccine, Pfizer vaccine and others will be scrutinised too.
At the moment, we have a few dozen cases reported. There will be more as clinicians are aware of what to look out for. It will be beneficial to know if and how much so we can make better decisions in the future.
The balance is what harm is incurred if the AZ vaccine is suspended set against potential harm of a causal link between blood clots and the AZ vaccine.
The equilibrium point varies from country to country. If your country has a high death toll, it simply cannot afford to slow down vaccinations. Countries that has good stock of Pfizer can stop for a week or two while their scientists go through the study.
There is no medical reason. 37 cases in over 17 million vaccinations is well below natural occurrence rate.
With regards to stopping deployment of the Oxford vaccine, a hair trigger exists with the major EU nations. It’s political.
they are the initial figures. A week ago, the figure was something like 11.
We'll see where they are heading in a week or two.
Just to give you an idea, if 1% of the 25 millions first dosed Brits has Covid since the jab, that's 250,000. If 1% of which has a clot, that's 2,500. Most clots aren't lethal, I am not worried but I'd like to know.
It’s not 2500, it’s 37.
The harm done not vaccinating people dwarfs the potential harm from the non existent threat of blood clotting. Why stop? Because it’s a political decision.
Yes it does answer the question, you just don't want to see it.
Blood clots have occurred and one of the vaccines hasn't been fully trialled, fully approved or peer reviewed. It's therefore entirely reasonable to suspend its use for a very short period to investigate for any possibility of a connection.
Many of these countries have proved they are not against the AZ since they've already been using it for large numbers of first doses and have stocks to continue. That the pause in its use is political is clearly a nonsense existing only in your own anti-EU mind.
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The vaccine use has been suspended since Sunday /Monday, it is now Wednesday. The suspension is by the National Regulatory Authorities, and they are pooling information with the EMA. I do not know , and most certainly you don't either, whether there is any validity against the blood clotting hypothesis.It is only you who could state that a vaccine which is currently suspended from use in 15 countries is still being used by those countries.
If it’s all about prudent planning the second dose stock levels, why are the leaders blaming blood clotting? Answer? Your theory is BS. It makes a change from you just being plain wrong I suppose.
I am concerned that the UK is wrapping a union jack, around this,rather than being rational. Claims that there are 17M injections and miniscule blood clot incidents, is superficially true, ... Except. The UK AZ spokeswoman said that the incidence of clots was LESS than normal or random in their 11M ..great PR!, But is it true?.and more importantly, why would that be so?. The 6M injected outside the UK have resulted in a few deaths ,in what otherwise were healthy people,in prime of life. Is there suppression of data in the UK?. Is the formula used in the EU identical in every respect with that used in the UK. Is the process identical?.
Aspirin is a very long established drug simple to create...I even made it in College, But there is or was a therapeutic difference between Bayer Asprin and generic aspirin. The Bayer process resulted in a longer crystal, with better performance. Clinicians knew this. There are many more steps in these vaccines. Woosh might choose to enlighten you on the performance of stereoisomers... Same molecule, different shapes, different outcome.
As I previously reported this is of very personal concern to me,and not just a debating point. My son was scheduled for the AZ Yesterday , and is now deferred . As a lung transplant candidate, he would not survive any clotting incident or any CV19 infection.
So I want facts ,I want truth, and I don't want jingoism or PR.
How many many time must I answer this question Zlatan, for you to continue to refuse to understand?
The EU and its bodies are temporary for the purpose of working towards Europe being a single united nation. Until that is achieved the EU will be very limited in its effectiveness while the member countries hold individual overruling power.
Bodies like the EMA, Space Agency etc are steps on the road to a United Europe with a single central government for the Europe wide issues. The vaccine need was an ideal candidate for EU wide governance, giving several benefits over individual countries running them.
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we look away for now.
With the highest death toll in Europe, whatever that is, we need the jabs more so what's the point?
The truth as JHC stated above is 37 cases, with no proven link, out of 17 million administered of AZ, with almost identical occurrence in Pfizer and actually less cases than would be expected out of 17 million people chosen at random.
The truth is there for all to see, you simply don't want to accept there simply is no medical reason to suspend AZ use, and if there is why has Pfizer not been stopped.
Its almost guaranteed that when EMA make their announcement tomorrow it will be no different to what they have said all along.
A) Chances of link are very very remote
B) Even if link exists the numbers involved are so low they are not over those in a normal population and risk is way under that of covid having not taken vaccine.
They have been searching for reasons to do this all along. You explain why?
I gave figures last week on risk(even assuming a link)
It is 0.007 per 1000 jabs administered.
Risk for contraceptive pill (for clots etc) is 0.6 per 1000 administered. In other words, even if there is a link, it's over 1000 less times likely to occur than risk of females taking pill. Just explain to me how that makes any medical sense. If you fail to take pill... You get pregnant. If you fail to have jab... You could die. Its insane. And nothing to do with either precaution or medical reasons.
It isn't highest death toll in Europe.
Belgium, Czechia and Slovenia are all higher than UK now.. With way things are looking France/Italy /Montenegro /Spain likely to go above us.
Chttps://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
List organised in order of World's worst death rate/100,000.(figures 2nd attachment) From Worldometer this morning. UK 6th in Europe.
But discounting Gibraltar and San Marino on size puts us 4th worst. Terrible figures but not as folk like to insist worst in Europe.
No country in Europe has the luxury of delaying vaccine. Perhaps justifiable in Australia/New Zealand but certainly not in Europe.
Just stop and think how you would feel. Got your jab booked for today but its cancelled, no new dates given. (They can't until decision is made) Then in mean time you contract covid... Its simply not on. Its terrible. And you all know it. But we are OK, we, ve all had ours. (apologies Danidl)
Perhaps they should have allowed individuals to make up their own minds. Put out the figures, let EMA etc give their explanation, rationale and then people either do or don't roll up.
How many on here wouldn't go after WHO, EMA, JVCI, Mhra all say its not only perfectly safe but advantageous to go.??
I, d go. Suspect, no matter what you say on here, you all would. Well perhaps Polly wouldn't.
Seems to me EU has engineered a lot of Polly copies.
Its a simple and pertinent question. Had you got a booking for AZ vaccine today would you go?
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Coincidentally I was listening to Mr Pro EU, James O’Brien on LBC. Even he’s convinced it’s a political decision led by the snide French pigmy.