This verbal diarrhoea of yours is not good for you, you simply cannot stop can you?
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Really Zlatan, you are going around in circles here.
The AZ vaccine has been proven to protect against the older and more prevalent CV19, particularly in younger people. Its performance in the older cohorts is still unproven. This is due to lack of evidence , not evidence of ineffectiveness.
The mRNA vaccines has been proven to work against the older CV19 strains in all age groups , when the recommended double jab is given.
In neither case is the effectiveness of either vaccine technology been confirmed for some of the emerging strains. Again this is because the newer strains are well newer and the trials and statistics have not been developed. However at present the older reliable earlier strain of CV19 is the market leader and is the more effective killer. Putting it in jingoistic terms ...Just like Hurricanes and Spitfires .. even though the Spitfire was a better killer, the more numerous Hurricanes killed more.
Last edited:
I think you have that wrong. It isn’t like that. It’s not a case of it not being “strong” enough to stop mild disease, therefore it’s automatically not strong enough to prevent severe disease.
I think what we are seeing is, the vaccine can’t prevent SA variant infection, but it can give the immune system a lift so that if infected the disease will be either mild or moderate, but it is unlikely to progress to severe requiring hospitalisation or an undertaker.
Not really. The south african research was done with young adults (at the uni of witwatersrand) because they are mainly the spreaders there. They dont usually develop severe disease (for having good immune response). The fact that they develop moderate covid on az despite this is a worry.
Once again they have not said that, I quote yet again:
"it does not protect people infected with the variant against mild to moderate Covid"
You can't just add words as you have by including moderate which is specifically excluded in their statement. Or using the word symptoms as you did twice before, when that word as not used at all in the original statement. Suffering a symptom is not necessarily suffering an illness.
.
Flecc isn't reading it like that but that's exactly the point made by scientist on radio this morning.. It protects against severe illness. But point is actually irrelevant, do Flecc, OG and Danidl actually suggest we stop vaccination programme..??? Or keep going with the goal of reducing burden on NHS from older strains so that T and T can concentrate on strains least reduced by vaccine.
There is simply no rationale behind Flecc and OG point.. Yes, the vaccine isn't as effective against SA strain... Now what. Stop making vaccines? Goverent do what exactly? Individuals do what?
Personally keeping my head down and hoping for vaccine ASAP. I, ll take my chances with SA strain and expect even if I got it that it would be mild to moderate. Not severe?
What are flecc, OG and Danidl suggesting? Are you 3 still having vaccine? Of course you are when it's offered. But in mean time working your hardest to point out vaccine flaws, UK's poor strategy and putting gloating vaxers off having jab.
And BTW, the less effective the jab is the more that must have it to work.
That's not quite true. The group did not include any over 50 but since that group now represent a quarter of all those hospitalised in UK you would expect a quarter of those in survey who developed covid to be hospitalised. They weren't. The fact they weren't hospitalised shows vaccine although did not prevent infection or moderate illness it prevented a lot of hospitalisations.
I do have to correct you on this Danidl, you can get the exact numbers online from the Air Ministry of the RAF online. We built a little over 18,000 Spitfires and over 16,000 Hurricanes.
The Hurricanes achieved more kills for a variety of well known reasons:
For a while with 8 close coupled machine guns they outgunned the 4 gun Spitfires until synchronised firing through the propeller was achieved and more guns added.
Even then the close coupled machine guns were more damaging to enemy aircraft than the Spitfire's wide spaced ones, making the Hurricane the more effective killer.
Better for pilots since they had a more roomy cockpit and better visibility that the Spitfire.
The wood and doped fabric of the Hurricane could usually be repaired overnight after being shot up. The rivetted alloy plates and ribs of the Spitfire meant laborious drilling out and replacement, so they were frequently not available to fly the next day after being damaged. So in that sense the number of Hurricanes might catch up with the number of Spifires locally at times.
Some of the pro-Spitfire fans maintain that the Hurricanes had the easier job of shooting down bombers, but there's little official evidence of that.
The popularity of the Spitfire over the Hurricanes doesn't match their respective performances, so I think it comes down to the Spitfire being the better looking plane for most and being all metal having more modern appeal.
.
Last edited:
the duration of the trial is just not long enough.
Prof Gilbert tried to defend the AZ vaccine on Marr's show yesterday but had to wrap her arguments in a lot of caveats.
In case you are interested in the South African (or 501y.v2) covid variant, there is a good paper on it here:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.18.427166v1.full.pdf
This variant defeats all approved monoclonal antibodies and antibodies in COVID-19 convalescent plasma.
So it does not matter much which vaccine you have been given or will be given before the next winter, if this variant spreads in the UK, many people will die.
The conclusion is clear: we need new vaccines.
QUOTE:
Ultimately, the correlates of protection against SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe COVID-19 disease remain undetermined and rely upon ongoing large-scale clinical trials.
Nevertheless, the speed and scope of 501Y.V2 mediated immune escape from pre-existing neutralizing antibodies highlight the urgent requirement for rapidly adaptable vaccine design platforms, and the need to identify less mutable viral targets for incorporation into future immunogens.
Last edited:
The median age of the volunteers in the Wits/SA study was 31 years. Not "under 50". That makes a big difference in terms of age on expected hospital admission/mortality rates. You cannot conclude anything about az and uk hospital admissions on the basis of it. I know were all partisan, but let's not emulate comical Ali.
Indeed, and why the authorities are desperate to confine it with Test and Trace.
But they'll need to do a lot better than they have so far with that to succeed.
I'm rather pessimistic on this and think we'll need to protect ourselves by separation and masking for a long time yet, at least until a better vaccine or booster comes along for all of us.
.
Last edited:
Pfizer's Covid vaccine 'will work against South African variant'
Researchers at New York University tested how well the blood of people who had received the vaccine could destroy the coronavirus, and found it still worked but was slightly weaker.
Not quite what Woosh suggests but I agree we will have to socially distance and take precautions for a long time yet.
As I said page's ago, the vaccine is only one facet in this fight.
However, if we look at the words, they include "people infected", which is interesting. I suspect many read that as "people becoming infected". Not sure how they should be interpreted.
I give you factual evidence, you give us fantasy ramblings on your beliefs and Union Jack waving, with the odd bit of anti-EU sentiment thrown in.
.
Not for me to correct the venerable Flecc, but in the context of the current discussion highly relevant. The seminal time was the Battle of Britain and at that time Hurricanes outnumbered Spitfires 2.2 to 1. We don't know what the eventual end game with these viruses will be, but at present the older variant is doing the most harm
Indeed. The Oxford-AZ team are far too vague for my liking in so much they announce, and their members far too willing to tweak the message to suit changing circumstances.
I prefer Pfizers honest and unchanging responses and their willingness to oppose our government advice that extended gaps between doses is ok.
.
Last edited:
Another change - possibly not quite a U-turn - re vaccinations:
Matt Hancock said on Monday the government was “on track” to meet the mid-February target.
He said 91% of the over-80s had had a vaccine dose, 95% of those aged 75 to 79 and almost three quarters of those aged 70 to 74.
But he added: “I now urge everyone aged 70 and over who hasn’t yet had a vaccination to come forward and contact the NHS to book in their jab.
Matt Hancock said on Monday the government was “on track” to meet the mid-February target.
He said 91% of the over-80s had had a vaccine dose, 95% of those aged 75 to 79 and almost three quarters of those aged 70 to 74.
But he added: “I now urge everyone aged 70 and over who hasn’t yet had a vaccination to come forward and contact the NHS to book in their jab.
Indeed, and outgunned the four gun Spitfire at at time with their eight guns.
But the Hurricane remained the superior fighting plane for the stated reasons, not because there were always more of them. No less a person than Douglas Bader said as much and the RAF don't disagree.
The Spitfire's failing was being designed as a racing seaplane with a wing structure that was far too flimsy to be adequately close weaponed.
.