Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Which information????
You are imagining things again.
Your narrative throughout has devalued government messaging. I, ve been saying all along just follow rules,listen to briefings.
You, ve done nothing but decry the system.

And I haven't at any point said otherwise, simply pointed out when it was too little and too late and too confusing
As to the "System" the only system is to avoid making timely decisions preferring to get a cheaper option to work
As to decrying the system
I do, it's inadequate run by corrupt people for corrupt reasons
and that is the only possible sane way to view it
Huge sums of public money thrown at incompetent cronies, latest being the Vaccination commissar who opened a commercial enterprise to cash in on the money tree

 

[oldgroaner]

This is the sort of idiot we are supposed to trust will make life saving decisions

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347628671331348482

 

[oldgroaner]

As I said, the 12 week wait might be a positive.. Folk less inclined to mix if they are unsure of level of protection.
Why can't folk just follow instructions..
They, ve said all along vaccine isn't a silver bullet. Interviewed a couple yesterday, they were already making plans to visit kids and grandkids in 3 weeks time.
The idea is to keep folk out of hospital at moment not so they can sod off on holiday.. (Ryan Air advert.. Jab and go.. People are just stupid)
This is sort of BS doing rounds at moment.
View attachment 40122

This place has done well with regards not circulating utter BS, this is type of thing I, ve had to remove from forum I mod on, it's a daily occurrence.. This one is one of better ones.
Author forgets to say his immune system is 99.9 % effective when given chance with a decent vaccine.(you, ve probably guessed this lad won't be having vaccine)
Have a look at
www.worlddoctorsalliance.com

(I fact checked it. Its BS)

Then we wonder why folk ignore instructions...

Perhaps because the government sets an example by ignoring the 21 days stipulated by PfizerBiotech between doses?

 

[Zlatan]

And I haven't at any point said otherwise, simply pointed out when it was too little and too late and too confusing
As to the "System" the only system is to avoid making timely decisions preferring to get a cheaper option to work
As to decrying the system
I do, it's inadequate run by corrupt people for corrupt reasons
and that is the only possible sane way to view it
Huge sums of public money thrown at incompetent cronies, latest being the Vaccination commissar who opened a commercial enterprise to cash in on the money tree

But that message is damaging. It removes any authority that people should follow rules. It's saying our authority is corrupt and many many people only need a breath of an excuse to do what they want.... And they do. There is a time and a place to question and examine all this. Whilst folk should be listening, following instructions and maintaining restrictions is certainly not the time to denounce the government,especially when we don't have an alternative.
I haven't supported this Government for any intrinsic values I believe they hold, I support them because its the best thing to do for the public in general. Yes, it's not only reason we are where we are but your criticisms certainly have not helped persuade people to do the right thing, quite the reverse.

 

[oyster]

The idea is to keep folk out of hospital at moment not so they can sod off on holiday.. (Ryan Air advert.. Jab and go.. People are just stupid)

Partner mentioned that to me the other day - but neither of us has seen it since. Is it still going? Or was it pulled?

 

[Zlatan]

Perhaps because the government sets an example by ignoring the 21 days stipulated by PfizerBiotech between doses?

Perhaps because they have no choice.

 

[Zlatan]

Partner mentioned that to me the other day - but neither of us has seen it since. Is it still going? Or was it pulled?

Not sure. I haven't seen it today.

 

[Nev]

We have only got until next Wednesday if Trump doesn't decide Armageddon is preferable to being a loser.

Seriously worrying when the senior politicians are worried about the possibility. Mind, we might be a touch safer than Teheran.

During the last few weeks of the Nixon presidency, several senior Republicans in the cabinet were worried Nixon was losing the plot. A protocol was secretly put in place so that even if Nixon triggered the launch codes the military would not launch any nuclear weapons without authorization from additional members of the inner cabinet. This information did not come out until many years later.

I would like to think something similar is happening, and perhaps has been in place for quite some time. I was listening to an interview by our ex ambassador Kim something or other. He said the vast majority of senior Republicans that he had spoken to thought Trump was totally unsuited to being president and was completely incompetent but they were too scared of his base to come out and publicly say it.

 

[oldgroaner]

But that message is damaging. It removes any authority that people should follow rules. It's saying our authority is corrupt and many many people only need a breath of an excuse to do what they want.... And they do. There is a time and a place to question and examine all this. Whilst folk should be listening, following instructions and maintaining restrictions is certainly not the time to denounce the government,especially when we don't have an alternative.
I haven't supported this Government for any intrinsic values I believe they hold, I support them because its the best thing to do for the public in general. Yes, it's not only reason we are where we are but yours, and many more like you, certainly hasn't helped persuade people to do the right thing, quite the reverse.

You really don't seem to understand, we cannot afford to continue tolerating the mistakes lies and shortcuts this government are making, they are turning a disaster into a catastrophe.
placidly accepting what they do is not a rational course.
And no, supporting them isn't the best thing. We need rid of them, and an all party coalition not owned by foreign funding
Let's put it this way if by some miracle the entire Conservative party disappeared overnight it would not make our situation worse. The Civil Service would take charge without the interference that now stops them running the country properly
We are in a similar situation during WW2 where we were like to be defeated if Chamberlain remained prime minister
What saved the day was an appeal to the Labour Party by Churchill to form a coalition, with him at the helm and Attlee is his deputy.
Already we are in situation worse than we were then, having already suffered more casualties,than in the whole of WW2, and a huge proportion of these are directly due to Boris and his cronies

 

[flecc]

Let's hope the vaccine can start affect numbers ASAP.
We do need to know exactly why UK has done so badly because without doubt this will happen again. Blaming one thing or another could hide some crucial matter we need to change... Putting it at Boris' feet might be just but it might not.
We must keep an open mind and examine in future exactly what has gone wrong on so many levels.

Agreed, there are many factors other than Boris's undoubted mistakes, some being the reason for his mistakes, one being the juxtaposition of Brexit with Covid which multiplied the infection spreading travelling going on between European countries and drained away huge numbers of our of our medical staff at the worst possible time. An early suspension of at least a year in the Brexit process with reassurances and guarantees for those valued people would have been the best response to Covid once we knew how serious it was.

That might also have encouraged us to work more co-operatively with Europe in sharing best practice on dealing with Covid instead of perversely following our own foolish policies like possible herd immunity. And Boris having his pet project of Brexit out of mind might have encouraged him to think more open mindedly about how to deal with Covid. For example being more statesmanlike and stepping aside by appointing a Minister to exclusively deal with control of the Pandemic while he got on with his fundamental job of monitoring his cabinets activities. It must be as obvious to him as it is to us that he is not a good organiser, more a cheer leader egging staffs on than a skilful manager.

As for avoiding in future the many mistakes we've made, we only need to drop our wholly undeserved national superiority complex and accept that we need to work more co-operatively in what is and will continue to be a global world of partnerships of the successful.
.

 

[Zlatan]

You really don't seem to understand, we cannot afford to continue tolerating the mistakes lies and shortcuts this government are making, they are turning a disaster into a catastrophe.
placidly accepting what they do is not a rational course.
And no, supporting them isn't the best thing. We need rid of them, and an all party coalition not owned by foreign funding
Let's put it this way if by some miracle the entire Conservative party disappeared overnight it would not make our situation worse. The Civil Service would take charge without the interference that now stops them running the country properly

But not in middle of a pandemic OG especially when we have absolutely no alternative. We don't have a shadow cabinet. We don't have any reserves. Can you imagine the shambles to have no government majority at moment. We would not have got a lockdown ever. They, d be arguing still.

 

[flecc]

A protocol was secretly put in place so that even if Nixon triggered the launch codes the military would not launch any nuclear weapons without authorization from additional members of the inner cabinet.

I'm quite sure that will have happened very soon after Trump became President since his instability was so obvious.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Agreed, there are many factors other than Boris's undoubted mistakes, some being the reason for his mistakes, one being the juxtaposition of Brexit with Covid which multiplied the infection spreading travelling going on between European countries and drained away huge numbers of our of our medical staff at the worst possible time. An early suspension of at least a year in the Brexit process with reassurances and guarantees for those valued people would have been the best response to Covid once we knew how serious it was.

That might also have encouraged us to work more co-operatively with Europe in sharing best practice on dealing with Covid instead of perversely following our own foolish policies like possible herd immunity. And Boris having his pet project of Brexit out of mind might have encouraged him to think more open mindedly about how to deal with Covid. For example being more statesmanlike and stepping aside by appointing a Minister to exclusively deal with control of the Pandemic while he got on with his fundamental job of monitoring his cabinets activities. It must be as obvious to him as it is to us that he is not a good organiser, more a cheer leader egging staffs on than a skilful manager.

As for avoiding in future the many mistakes we've made, we only need to drop our wholly undeserved national superiority complex and accept that we need to work more co-operatively in what is and will continue to be a global world of partnerships of the successful.
.

I do agree re suspension of Brexit. Would have given everybody opportunity to focus on issue at hand and remove its use as both a stick and count score either way.
I really think social media should have been far better policed, with emergency authority to remove "fake news" etc.
There has been systematic failure above government level. This syndrome has been predicted for years, yet at the outset nothing was done.

 

[oldgroaner]

But not in middle of a pandemic OG especially when we have absolutely no alternative. We don't have a shadow cabinet. We don't have any reserves. Can you imagine the shambles to have no government majority at moment. We would not have got a lockdown ever. They, d be arguing still.

Good grief! back then we were faced with invasion and living as slaves and you talk about the Pandemic as if it is somehow worse?
Had we failed back then most of us would not be around now.
When you have a coalition there is no question of indecision in a crisis, that is what it is for.
It has proved to work as party politics go out of the window

 

[Zlatan]

I'm quite sure that will have happened very soon after Trump became President since his instability was so obvious.
.

Its to be hoped so.

 

[oyster]

Perhaps because the government sets an example by ignoring the 21 days stipulated by PfizerBiotech between doses?

Would have been so much better if they could have come out with a joint agreed statement between PHE/NHS/etc. and Pfizer/BioNTech. However much fudge they might have needed.

 

[Zlatan]

Good grief! back then we were faced with invasion and living as slaves and you talk about the Pandemic as if it is somehow worse?
Had we failed back then most of us would not be around now.
When you have a coalition there is no question of indecision in a crisis, that is what it is for.
It has proved to work as party politics go out of the window

OG the pandemic is potentially worse but I, m not sure what you are on about.
We haven't got facility to initiate a war cabinet when not at war and with a functioning (in theory) 80 seat majority government.
We can't just one day decide to have a coalition government. And why on earth are you assuming anything decided would have been any different. Our worse disasterin history happened during coalition government. (Fall of Singapore?)

 

[oyster]

We can't just one day decide to have a coalition government.

With our lack of written constitution, we probably can.

Though it would be the HoC - and the PM of the day - deciding to do it. Not us.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

 

[Nev]

Would have been so much better if they could have come out with a joint agreed statement between PHE/NHS/etc. and Pfizer/BioNTech. However much fudge they might have needed.

I suspect if there was a shortage of vaccine in the USA then that may well have happened. From what I can gather off some of the US news channels, the problem over there is not shortage of vaccine its in the organisation of getting it into peoples arms.

The US can be rather bureaucratic here is an example I heard someone talking about on CNN today this was happening in the State of Kentucky. They have a list of priorities for the vaccine just like we have.

So lets say a vaccine center is contacting everyone in the highest priority to come in for a shot. If some of those people did not bother to attend they could only offer left over vaccine to other people in the top priority. If they could not contact enough of the people in the top priority to use up all the vaccine available, they were not allowed to contact people in the second from top priority. The rules stated that all the people in the top priority had to have been offered the vaccine before it was to be offered to people in the second from top priority.

This rule meant that quite a lot of vaccine was actually being thrown away.

This rule has now been changed and the State has mandated at least 90% of vaccine delivered to centers needs to end up in peoples arms even if that means ignoring the original rule.