Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Really? Don't you think traffic allover the SE (and London) would be significantly worse without the M25. I use that road a lot - it takes a lot of people and goods from A to B. It is a very popular road. Imagine without it. Have you seen what happens when it gets blocked and everybody dives onto the local roads to make the same journeys? Its mad.

I think you are missing the points I was making thoughout this post sequence.

Firstly I was comparing the M25 to having the two originally planned London motorway boxes instead, not being without all three.

Second that I made the point that the M25 produced all the traffic you complain of, encouraging more traffic by its presence. You are using it because it's there. It's too often missed that building extra roads produces more traffic than there would have been if they weren't built. Los Angeles is the nightmare that illustrates it only too well, that there can never be enough roads, they fill as fast as they are built.

Third that we should have been heading for a modern rail future instead of an all road one. Convoys of articulated trucks with a driver in each is a daft way to shift bulk goods over long distances and equally daft is thousands of cars with one person in each.

The sequence of my four posts about this starts with this one
.

 

[oyster]

Sounds like win, win win ...

Hasn't Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe suffered enough?

 

[oyster]

Eddie Mair's comment to and about BJ comes to mind - ready to be re-used?

Brexit funder Arron Banks threatens Netflix over Great Hack documentary

Legal threat comes as campaigners warn UK government that courts are being used to intimidate journalists


The businessman Arron Banks and the unofficial Brexit campaign Leave.EU have issued a legal threat against streaming giant Netflix in relation to The Great Hack, a new documentary about the Cambridge Analytica scandal and the abuse of personal data.


The threat comes as press freedom campaigners and charity groups warn the government in an open letter that UK courts are being used to “intimidate and silence” journalists working in the public interest.

In a joint letter to key cabinet members, they call for new legislation to stop “vexatious lawsuits”, highlighting one filed last week by Banks against campaigning journalist Carole Cadwalladr.


Award-winning reports by Cadwalladr, a freelance journalist who works for the Observer, have led to multiple investigations by regulators, and a $5bn fine for Facebook.


“The legal claim against Ms Cadwalladr, issued on 12 July by lawyers acting for Arron Banks, is another example of a wealthy individual appearing to abuse the law in an attempt to silence a journalist and distract from these issues being discussed by politicians, the media and the public at a critical time in the life of our democracy,” the letter says.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/20/arron-banks-netflix-threat-great-hack-documentary

 

[Danidl]

Here's your nightmare scenario (and one I would love). He gets some sort of a Brexit done - at the very least the backstop is gone - somehow. Then calls an election. And wins with a decent majority.

Except the backstop is not going.. What has been offered any number of times, except never understood in the UK,is that the EU and Ireland would happily accept is it being confined to NI.

 

[Fingers]

I am not convinced that railways make efficient land use now that we are at the cusp of robotic driving.
Look at the M25. If you replace the M25 with HS trains, would you get a better return?

Indo think there is a massive argument on making all motorways with a Trainline attached.

But for the weight of said trains you need specific lines.

A tram like system would work better.

 

[Fingers]

If true they are worrying about nothing, ultimately the public always blame politicians, never the civil service.

With one in six UK working people employed in the public sector, politicians blaming any public servants is unlikely to find a substantial sympathetic ear.
.

There won't be a brexit

It's all lies. Smoke and mirrors. This is this generations Iraq war.

It's not going to happen.

The fun for us to see how they stop it.

 

[Danidl]

There won't be a brexit

It's all lies. Smoke and mirrors. This is this generations Iraq war.

It's not going to happen.

The fun for us to see how they stop it.

Oh there will be a brexit Scotty, but not as we know it..to paraphrase Startrek.
If BJ is the super-duper salesman he believes himself to be,he might take the WA,as agreed by Mrs May, dicky about with Backstop, make it apply to NI only and then move on as the saviour ..so it could be a brexit with a small b (the big B being the PM)

 

[Fingers]

Oh there will be a brexit Scotty, but not as we know it..to paraphrase Startrek.
If BJ is the super-duper salesman he believes himself to be,he might take the WA,as agreed by Mrs May, dicky about with Backstop, make it apply to NI only and then move on as the saviour ..so it could be a brexit with a small b (the big B being the PM)

Stockholm syndrome

 

[oldgroaner]

Stockholm syndrome

Is that your problem fingers? you are the only one on here that doesn't think Brexit will happen.
If that isn't Stockholm syndrome I don't know what is
You obviously worship the people you think are preventing you getting your precious Brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

Eddie Mair's comment to and about BJ comes to mind - ready to be re-used?

Brexit funder Arron Banks threatens Netflix over Great Hack documentary

Legal threat comes as campaigners warn UK government that courts are being used to intimidate journalists


The businessman Arron Banks and the unofficial Brexit campaign Leave.EU have issued a legal threat against streaming giant Netflix in relation to The Great Hack, a new documentary about the Cambridge Analytica scandal and the abuse of personal data.


The threat comes as press freedom campaigners and charity groups warn the government in an open letter that UK courts are being used to “intimidate and silence” journalists working in the public interest.

In a joint letter to key cabinet members, they call for new legislation to stop “vexatious lawsuits”, highlighting one filed last week by Banks against campaigning journalist Carole Cadwalladr.


Award-winning reports by Cadwalladr, a freelance journalist who works for the Observer, have led to multiple investigations by regulators, and a $5bn fine for Facebook.


“The legal claim against Ms Cadwalladr, issued on 12 July by lawyers acting for Arron Banks, is another example of a wealthy individual appearing to abuse the law in an attempt to silence a journalist and distract from these issues being discussed by politicians, the media and the public at a critical time in the life of our democracy,” the letter says.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/20/arron-banks-netflix-threat-great-hack-documentary

Time for Cressida Dick to start making arrests and put an end to this nonsense, what happened to the police investigation?

 

[oldgroaner]

Just when you think the leave campaign has hit rock bottom they find new ways of going even lower, using another Scapegoat Stooge.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7268519/STEVEN-EDGINTON-19-journalist-exposed-memos-UKs-man-Washington.html
"
Why I helped expose ambassador's embarrassing cables: Journalist, 19, behind Trump scoop comes forward to reveal his motivation and fears he’s being targeted by security services

• Journalist Steven Edginton, 19, fears he is being targeted by security services
• The person who leaked the explosive Washington Files was his trusted source
• In April, he began working as a digital strategist for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party
• Mr Edginton says his story was not a 'Brexiteer plot to topple Sir Kim Darroch'

This is so Hilarious it's amazing they are trying to sell the story, what happened to the Female credited with the story?
And how can you balance these two statements

• In April, he began working as a digital strategist for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party
• Mr Edginton says his story was not a 'Brexiteer plot to topple Sir Kim Darroch'

What the hell was it then?

Truly the leave campaign are getting worse
Look at this
"As a 19-year-old freelance journalist with a passion for politics, I was looking for a big project through which to develop my career. "

And then he does this?
"
spent several days mulling over what to do before contacting Isabel Oakeshott, a highly experienced journalist with whom I have worked.

We developed the story together before providing it to The Mail on Sunday. Given the possible controversy, we decided to leave my name out of it. "

Oh sure
And we are expected to believe it wasn't a leave plot when you look at the people involved?

And we still don't know the source of the leak, and what happened to the threat "There's more to come?"

Still it's reassuring that in fact this man confirms that

A digital strategist for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party Mr Edginton says his story was not a 'Brexiteer plot to topple Sir Kim Darroch'
I was looking for a big project through which to develop my career. "

And that was more important than ruining the career of our Ambassador, and it was simply a co-incidence that this guy is one of Farage's organisation?

Is there anyone out there stupid enough to fall for this pack of lies?

 

[oyster]

Journalist Steven Edginton, 19, fears he is being targeted by security services

Can you imagine the security services, who are investigating who the prime leaker is, ignoring this idiot?

Mind, it makes sense that his motiviation was to develop his career. Utterly without regard to the costs to everyone else. "Self-serving" seems quite appropriate for the activities of all too many of these people.

I see that in March this year has was Steven Edginton is the Chief Digital Strategist at Leave Means Leave.

 

[oldgroaner]

Can you imagine the security services, who are investigating who the prime leaker is, ignoring this idiot?

Mind, it makes sense that his motiviation was to develop his career. Utterly without regard to the costs to everyone else. "Self-serving" seems quite appropriate for the activities on all too many of these people.

I see that in March this year has was Steven Edginton is the Chief Digital Strategist at Leave Means Leave.

Amazing that someone who claims to be ambitious is playing the "poor little naive me out of my depth card."
It's reminiscent of the old Woody Allen line
"Instantly I reverted to the old Navajo Indian trick of screaming and begging."

 

[oyster]

Amazing that someone who claims to be ambitious is playing the "poor little naive me out of my depth card."
It's reminiscent of the old Woody Allen line
"Instantly I reverted to the old Navajo Indian trick of screaming and begging."

Is it too much to hope that he takes Isabel Euphemia Oakeshott down with him? (Assuming, of course, that she really has done something illegal and reprehensible.)

 

[oyster]

There are times I wonder about the way way the Guardian arranges its articles on the digital front page. Sometimes it looks random, other times, possibly very deliberate. Couldn't possibly be suggesting...

 

[Wicky]

Can you imagine the security services, who are investigating who the prime leaker is, ignoring this idiot?

Mind, it makes sense that his motiviation was to develop his career. Utterly without regard to the costs to everyone else. "Self-serving" seems quite appropriate for the activities of all too many of these people.

I see that in March this year has was Steven Edginton is the Chief Digital Strategist at Leave Means Leave.

Hard to see how he can claim to be a journalist - if he's anything he's a lackey lobbyist for Brexit.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1152871301520023552

As for Oakeshot seen her on QT a few times - nasty bit of work

Isabel Oakeshott believes Nigel Farage deserves a Knighthood

 

[Danidl]

Just when you think the leave campaign has hit rock bottom they find new ways of going even lower, using another Scapegoat Stooge.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7268519/STEVEN-EDGINTON-19-journalist-exposed-memos-UKs-man-Washington.html
"
Why I helped expose ambassador's embarrassing cables: Journalist, 19, behind Trump scoop comes forward to reveal his motivation and fears he’s being targeted by security services

• Journalist Steven Edginton, 19, fears he is being targeted by security services
• The person who leaked the explosive Washington Files was his trusted source
• In April, he began working as a digital strategist for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party
• Mr Edginton says his story was not a 'Brexiteer plot to topple Sir Kim Darroch'

This is so Hilarious it's amazing they are trying to sell the story, what happened to the Female credited with the story?
And how can you balance these two statements

• In April, he began working as a digital strategist for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party
• Mr Edginton says his story was not a 'Brexiteer plot to topple Sir Kim Darroch'

What the hell was it then?

Truly the leave campaign are getting worse
Look at this
"As a 19-year-old freelance journalist with a passion for politics, I was looking for a big project through which to develop my career. "

And then he does this?
"
spent several days mulling over what to do before contacting Isabel Oakeshott, a highly experienced journalist with whom I have worked.

We developed the story together before providing it to The Mail on Sunday. Given the possible controversy, we decided to leave my name out of it. "

Oh sure
And we are expected to believe it wasn't a leave plot when you look at the people involved?

And we still don't know the source of the leak, and what happened to the threat "There's more to come?"

Still it's reassuring that in fact this man confirms that

A digital strategist for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party Mr Edginton says his story was not a 'Brexiteer plot to topple Sir Kim Darroch'
I was looking for a big project through which to develop my career. "

And that was more important than ruining the career of our Ambassador, and it was simply a co-incidence that this guy is one of Farage's organisation?

Is there anyone out there stupid enough to fall for this pack of lies?

Now Fingers with your expert understanding of the law in the UK.
1. Will this gentleman be arrested as an accomplice to an illegal activity.. the dissemination of secret materials., Knowing them to be sensitive and secret?.
2. Will he be brought to court and charged and asked to name the person who supplied them?.
3. Will as he so courageously insists ,never disclose his source and therefore probably be kept in contempt of court?.
4 Is he actually a journalist? ,if he has no accreditation ,training or affiliation with a known newspaper

 

[oyster]

Hard to see how he can claim to be a journalist - if he's anything he's a lackey lobbyist for Brexit.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1152871301520023552

As for Oakeshot seen her on QT a few times - nasty bit of work

Isabel Oakeshott believes Nigel Farage deserves a Knighthood

But using the word "journalist" will evoke concepts such as "freedom of the press". And they will be claimed as some sort of universal defence for whatever they want to do. Some other people will be fooled...

Doing so should be roundly criticised by real journalists who do their damnedest to justify their rights and privileges by behaving properly. Yes, sometimes doing things that could land them in trouble but only when they feel they have no other choice.

 

[oldgroaner]

Hard to see how he can claim to be a journalist - if he's anything he's a lackey lobbyist for Brexit.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1152871301520023552

As for Oakeshot seen her on QT a few times - nasty bit of work

Isabel Oakeshott believes Nigel Farage deserves a Knighthood

I didn't realise Russia still had them

 

[50Hertz]

I'm not making any comment on the value of this HS2 project, just making the point that we have to start somewhere. That will include some that are better, some that are worse, but finding reasons to block every proposal for modernisation isn't going to get us anywhere.

For example, take the M25 that Woosh has just mentioned, a failure before its build was even started. That was because it's origins were to solve London's traffic problems at a time when the rest of the country didn't have a severe traffic problem,

So to solve the London specific problem, Inner London and Outer London motorway boxes were proposed, planned and builds started. Indeed 30 and more years ago I used to commute to work driving on parts of the Inner London motorway and here in Croydon we have a substantial section of the Outer Motorway box that I often drive on.

But then the NIMBY crowd kicked off with a campaign called Homes before Roads and eventually the politicians panicked and cancelled the motorway boxes, leaving sections scattered about ending nowhere, like our on-road painted cyclepaths. But the homes weren't built anyway, so we got neither roads nor homes, a typical British NIMBY victory.

But of course London's ever increasing traffic problem didn't go away, so a just outside London motorway box was proposed so that traffic could circle London closely to transfer from one part to another. However that simply proved impossible, partly due to the scale of the infrastructure on the fringes and partly due to the new NIMBY mob, this time of some elites.

So the "just outside London" motorway called the M25 ended up too far away to do what it was intended to do. For example, I'm in a sticking out bit of London's southern fringe, but I'm still nearly ten miles away from the M25. So to use the M25 to jump from one part of London to another means some 20 to 40 miles of additional driving just to get to and from the motorway, without counting the length travelling around it, which makes it an impractical way to move around London.

The M25 has ended up a 125 miles long bypass, doing nothing to relieve London's traffic problems while making other's traffic problems worse by encouraging vastly more car use by those living anywhere else.

This is what we always do, cancel every start to modernise through nimbyism and end up either with nothing or something completely unsuitable.
.

We just need less people, that’s all. After a bit of initial pain, the problems will go away eventually. We could make a start by scrapping our state sponsored breading programme.