Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Sorry to urinate on your bonfire, but Meadowhall has it's own railway station

"Meadowhall Interchange in Sheffield opened in 1990 at the same time as the Meadowhall Shopping Centre, linked to the station via a footbridge over the River Don. When it opened, Meadowhall was the second largest shopping centre in the country, and, today, it remains in the top ten. Thanks to Meadowhall Interchange, it is one of the few out-of-town shopping centres in the country fully integrated into the public transport network via the buses, trains and trams that all call at the station.

Happy to help as usual...

I know I, ve used it. Its normally empty. I, d guess it represents under 1% of business conducted at MH.
How many people want to carry their shopping to a train station (actually about half a mile from MH centre and it is not integrated into MH, its an uncovered open walk with main road to cross) wait for a train, carry stuff on, carry stuff off, get on a bus and go home. Its rather easier to park near the shop/area you wish to visit.. and drive home. Or even get a taxi, which is what more do than use train.
I live in Rotherham and know of one person who travels to MH by train. She happens to live 100metres from station in Rotherham.
Its a barmy argument OG. Only time that line is busy is taking drunks back to Parkgate, Rotherham or Attercliffe after a night out in Sheffield.(and only then if buses have stopped running)
That line and sub station could close and not a single shop in MH would even know. Close any of M1 /A630/j34 and MH would be devastated.
MH was sighted to be as close as possible to M1 for a reason. The railway station was an add on. The line BTW was already there.

 

[boyabouttown]

I commend you for this post, especially as you still keep plugging away despite the odds, and frequent reverses.
But hey! boyabouttown, do stay and join in the debate, you will find it excruciatingly addictive, for instance Zlatan came and kicked in the door intending to briefly purify the atmosphere ,defeat dragons, rescue maidens and drain the swamp... or was that the other way round?

He thought he was just passing through too, now with 4,081 posts behind him he still holds centre stage as the champion of last causes and fantastic dreams of Nirvana

He's like the smoker who has the "Willpower" to give up smoking and proved that three times last week.
Splendid fella

I look in this thread from time to time, but it takes ages reading all the unseen posts. I'm not going anywhere, i posted a question, yourself and others posted some responses, that's all. I was just saying i enjoyed it.

 

[oldgroaner]

he line BTW was already there.

One of the reasons for Meadowhall's position!

 

[boyabouttown]

Sure no problem 'killing time' around here. But don't expect 'just your opinions' to go unchallenged if anybody here thinks they deserve to be challenged.

You seem to be making a case that spending money on trains only benefits the 10%. I'm not so sure the figures bear that out. But then I don't have the figures. But you speak as if you do - but don't produce any analysis to back that up. So - right - its just an opinion - so what in that case.

I didn't expect my opinions to go unchallenged, they were.

 

[Zlatan]

It depends on the numbers. I don't know what they are. Do you?

Roads have their pros and cons just like everything else.

In some places I would guess improving the trains is the better option. Like I say - it depends on the numbers - on the analysis. Not my area of expertise.

I, m not sure it does. Surely it depends on distance. If destination isnt that far the trip to and from station become important. If its miles away not so.
Cant think of an instance where train could beat road for either price or convenience?? On very long journeys plane wipes floor with both but if you have driven, ie to France, you, ve got the car.
Tell me an industry or place totally dependant on railway and for each one there are a hundred dependant on road. Rail network should be allowed to die, get roads sorted.

 

[Zlatan]

One of the reasons for Meadowhall's position!

To bring both cusomers from South street in Rotherham.
Nobody goes to MH on the train OG. They, d have to be bonkers. Bet you have.
Why would you walk outside, dragging bags of shopping, get rained on (its always raining in Attercliffe) wait for a train with drunks, after buying a ticket, drag all and sundry onto train, then go to Parkgate or Rotherham... Then get a bus home.? When you can park right next to MH under cover, take escalator to shop. Get your stuff, then go home.?? Try it OG.
There will be a train from Hull, to Doncaster. Then change for Sheffield MH. Or you could just drive to MH, like sane people do.
I, ll bet if you come to MH by train its an hour longer both ways than driving. At least. More hassle and dearer.
I could do MH to Hull in an hour easy. See what it takes by train.And not the train journey but door to door with 3 bags of shopping

 

[Danidl]

To bring both cusomers from South street in Rotherham.
Nobody goes to MH on the train OG. They, d have to be bonkers. Bet you have.
Why would you walk outside, dragging bags of shopping, get rained on (its always raining in Attercliffe) wait for a train with drunks, after buying a ticket, drag all and sundry onto train, then go to Parkgate or Rotherham... Then get a bus home.? When you can park right next to MH under cover, take escalator to shop. Get your stuff, then go home.?? Try it OG.
There will be a train from Hull, to Doncaster. Then change for Sheffield MH. Or you could just drive to MH, like sane people do.
I, ll bet if you come to MH by train its an hour longer both ways than driving. At least. More hassle and dearer.
I could do MH to Hull in an hour easy. See what it takes by train.

Nothing that you have said negates a value in trains..just that that arrangement is not suitable for you. Now do the goods get delivered to the SC by train or lorry?
. An integrated public network uses high speed trains intercity, perhaps 3 stops on 120 miles, slower trains, stopping at intermediate stops at 5 to 8 mile gaps, trams or buses for the short hops,with stops every 0.5 mile. The key though is needs to be a system not a one off novelty. If the UK had such systems, the need for inter city aircraft flights would be eliminated .

 

[Fingers]

Don't put the NHS up for negotiation petition now at 74, 468 signatures! at 5:50 pm

Who said it was up for negotiation?

The petitions are as useful as second hand bog roll.

 

[Wicky]

Trump wades into RoI and Brexit - hope they have some colouring books and a crazy golf course on hand to keep him entertained before he toddles off to France.

The president added that there were "millions" of Irish people in the US and said: "I think I know most of them because they're my friends.

"We love the Irish, so it's an honour to be here."

Mr Trump, who just completed a three-day state visit to the UK, said he would discuss Brexit, the military and trade during his meeting with Mr Varadkar.

"Probably you'll ask me about Brexit because I just left some very good people who are very much involved with Brexit as you know, and I think it will all work out very well," Mr Trump said.

"And also for you, with your wall, your border. We have a border situation in the United States and you have one over here, but I hear it's going to work out very well."

The taoiseach pointed out the Irish government wanted to avoid "a border or wall" between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Mr Trump replied: "I think you do, I think you do. The way it works now is good, you want to try and keep it that way."

He added that Ireland was in "great shape" and that once a new UK prime minister was installed in Downing Street, he hoped a Brexit deal or resolution could be negotiated with the EU. (Did TM not tell him what she'd been up to for the past couple of years.)

 

[oyster]

Railways are one of the Strategic pillars of the state and need protection for that reason.
Without the Railways we would have lost both worlds wars.

The railways have long been considered essential for movement of things military.

Remember the build-up to the Falklands? At the time I travelled about 20 miles commuting by train. The amount of rolling stock, much with obvious things like military vehicles loaded, was astonishing. I really didn't appreciate that we had that much available.

Without rail, it would have been far more difficult to send the task force.

(Not passing any judgement here on the rights or wrongs of that conflict. Only the contribution of rail transport.)

 

[Zlatan]

Nothing that you have said negates a value in trains..just that that arrangement is not suitable for you. Now do the goods get delivered to the SC by train or lorry?
. An integrated public network uses high speed trains intercity, perhaps 3 stops on 120 miles, slower trains, stopping at intermediate stops at 5 to 8 mile gaps, trams or buses for the short hops,with stops every 0.5 mile. The key though is needs to be a system not a one off novelty. If the UK had such systems, the need for inter city aircraft flights would be eliminated .

No, we started this debate by somebody insisting trains instigated and fostered business. Those days have gone, business follows the road network. Hence Meadow Hall and its proximity to M1.
It was nothing to do with trains suitability to people, but since you have gone there. No in general they do not suit people as much as cars. How many people actually travel more by train than car? Commuters into big cities carrying very little. Not many others.
Roads can do anything trains can. Why not restart canals. They were marvelous for 1800s.

 

[oldgroaner]

Without a doubt the cheapest and most effective way to move heavy materials and container goods across the world is by rail
The Chinese are pioneering a route across to the capitals of Europe that will cut the journey time from weeks to days for goods and consequently the costs
No other form of transport can compete with this.
Ironically just when moves like this are transforming trade in both directions, we are deliberately cutting ourselves off from the continent.
Stupid move

 

[oyster]

With our chaotic fares system under privatisation it's impossible to be definitive, many cheap but very limited offers. I've just looked up London to Birmingham at a typical travel time on trainline.com and these were the offers:

Slow journey: £5.50 but limited availability.

Fast journey: £58.50 second class, £81 first class.

Very slow journey: £7 second class, £17 first class but only 4 tickets left.

Fast journey but later than requested time: £29.50 second class, £45 first class.

As you see, horribly expensive unless one wants to suffer long slow journeys or travel at inconvenient times.
.

To travel to Swansea and back in one day costs £17.80. Regardless. I don't have a £5.50 option but I also don't get gouged for £58.50. And I am free to change time of travel. Distance? Approximately half the London - Birmingham trip.

 

[oyster]

I wish all our roads did go downhill, wouldn't need e-bikes.
.

If I drive uphill then downhill - and back - I seem to get better mileage than on many flatter trips. Recently I have regularly been getting well over 70 mpg on my beach visits despite the pretty steep hill coming up from sea level. Going elsewhere it is quite often below 60 mpg.

 

[oyster]

Such as the first Mail order catalogue in the world ?

Where you could order by post from a catalogue, have it delivered to your local railway station, and either collect from there or have it locally delivered?

The date was 1861, and now after all this time shops are disappearing in favour of online ordering.This would be much more efficiently done by rail shipment and short road journeys from the local railway station that fleets of hundred of large and small lorries clogging the roads travelling huge mileages and polluting the environment.

Yes you are missing something .... as usual..

And I have actually been to Pryce Jones - don't think I bought anything though. At the time they operated a catalogue returns shop full of the sort of junk you would expect. No idea if they still do? Funny how they mention North Wales - I would usually describe it as Mid-Wales.

 

[flecc]

One of the reasons for Meadowhall's position!

Yes, the rail line.

Everyone knows the future of retail is on line.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

No, we started this debate by somebody insisting trains instigated and fostered business. Those days have gone, business follows the road network. Hence Meadow Hall and its proximity to M1.
It was nothing to do with trains suitability to people, but since you have gone there. No in general they do not suit people as much as cars. How many people actually travel more by train than car? Commuters into big cities carrying very little. Not many others.
Roads can do anything trains can. Why not restart canals. They were marvelous for 1800s.

Sorry but that last line is untrue roads cannot compete for heavy or bulk or containerised goods with railways over long distances, nor for that matter where there is a continental connected land mass can any other form of transport.

 

[flecc]

Rail network should be allowed to die, get roads sorted.

Rail deaths since 1st January 1950 = 790

Road deaths since 1st January 1950 = 101,000 (rounded)
.

 

[Danidl]

No, we started this debate by somebody insisting trains instigated and fostered business. Those days have gone, business follows the road network. Hence Meadow Hall and its proximity to M1.
It was nothing to do with trains suitability to people, but since you have gone there. No in general they do not suit people as much as cars. How many people actually travel more by train than car? Commuters into big cities carrying very little. Not many others.
Roads can do anything trains can. Why not restart canals. They were marvelous for 1800s.

Yes canals and rivers are also wonderful and still working. The one in Panama is doing ok I hear. The one near Istanbul is paying its way. The reason the canals in England and Ireland lasted as short as they did was because the Railways were more effective. 50 miles per hour was much better than 5 and even if the fuel cost more the cost benefit worked out. There was only a 75 year window between the canals and Railways. There has now been a 75 year window between mass cars and virtually no cars.

Just two asides, and the military context... the existence of the Grand Canal in Ireland... Dublin to the Shannon, is what enabled the British Red Coats to halt a major insurrection in 1798. A force of 2000 French soldiers and Irish "rebels", destroyed a force of 6000 Redcoats ,. The British under G.Lake abandoned their baggage and ran for 80 miles. However G.Cornwallis ,used the canals to bring a force of 15,000 and the combined French and Irish force collapsed when the French surrendered. Had there not been a canal, the history of Europe might have been different. England would not have defeated Napoleon without the grain resources and horses from Ireland.
In the same era, the French built the internal canal network from Nantes to Brest ,so as to transport material away from Royal Navy interference.

For my part, I am rarely using my car nowadays. I use it to get into the station ,park and then travel the 50 miles to Dublin . If a party if us were travelling the car would be the better option. My son is using a food delivery service instead of lugging stuff around...and he most assuredly lives in the future.

 

[flecc]

To travel to Swansea and back in one day costs £17.80. Regardless. I don't have a £5.50 option but I also don't get gouged for £58.50. And I am free to change time of travel. Distance? Approximately half the London - Birmingham trip.

Possibly the benefit of a lower population density?

Here with a huge population and packed commuter trains, the 11 miles from East Croydon to London Victoria is a fixed £6.32, taking 16, 18 or 20 minutes, depending on which service.
.